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	<title>Comments on: The Clamor for a Better Market Street Grows Louder</title>
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	<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/</link>
	<description>Covering San Francisco&#039;s livable streets movement</description>
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		<title>By: Adrienne</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4249</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrienne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 05:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4249</guid>
		<description>There is no need to drive on Market Street.  There is no parking, almost nowhere to stop, and parallel streets that can take drivers where they need to go.  For anyone wishing to visit a business on Market street, they have to park off Market and walk.  So why all of the hesitancy?  When Market street is repaved, it will be closed to traffic and people will have to get used to it anyway, so why not just extend that?  Even if it is just a commute time ban, now is certainly the time to do it, before the road becomes a well paved invitation to cruise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no need to drive on Market Street.  There is no parking, almost nowhere to stop, and parallel streets that can take drivers where they need to go.  For anyone wishing to visit a business on Market street, they have to park off Market and walk.  So why all of the hesitancy?  When Market street is repaved, it will be closed to traffic and people will have to get used to it anyway, so why not just extend that?  Even if it is just a commute time ban, now is certainly the time to do it, before the road becomes a well paved invitation to cruise.</p>
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		<title>By: mizshan</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4180</link>
		<dc:creator>mizshan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4180</guid>
		<description>Trinity&#039;s 1,900 units being rentals might give a reader the impression they might not generate a lot of car trips, but the linked Chronicle article from 2006 says 1,200 residental parking spaces were planned. While less than 1:1, that is still a very large number of new cars to dump at 10th &amp; Market. 

It would make vastly more sense to enact private vehicle restrictions on Market soon, before there are 1,200 new drivers in place to defend their right to drive whenever they want, wherever they want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trinity&#8217;s 1,900 units being rentals might give a reader the impression they might not generate a lot of car trips, but the linked Chronicle article from 2006 says 1,200 residental parking spaces were planned. While less than 1:1, that is still a very large number of new cars to dump at 10th &amp; Market. </p>
<p>It would make vastly more sense to enact private vehicle restrictions on Market soon, before there are 1,200 new drivers in place to defend their right to drive whenever they want, wherever they want.</p>
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		<title>By: marcos</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4175</link>
		<dc:creator>marcos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4175</guid>
		<description>We have examples where there is &quot;critical mass&quot; of housing and transit investment, and there is no commensurate pedestrian activity after hours to speak of.  See 3d and King.

I do not believe it possible to plan for the kind of livable cities that comprise San Francisco&#039;s real neighborhoods and arose organically because the city prioritizes the economic entitlements of developers.

“Here we practice the art of the deal, not the art of the city,” as the architecture critic Ada Louise Huxtable has put it.

On the Homefront - After the Bubble - Will the Recession Derail Michael Bloomberg&#039;s Grand Plans 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/realestate/keymagazine/15Key-lede-t.html

-marc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have examples where there is &#8220;critical mass&#8221; of housing and transit investment, and there is no commensurate pedestrian activity after hours to speak of.  See 3d and King.</p>
<p>I do not believe it possible to plan for the kind of livable cities that comprise San Francisco&#8217;s real neighborhoods and arose organically because the city prioritizes the economic entitlements of developers.</p>
<p>“Here we practice the art of the deal, not the art of the city,” as the architecture critic Ada Louise Huxtable has put it.</p>
<p>On the Homefront &#8211; After the Bubble &#8211; Will the Recession Derail Michael Bloomberg&#8217;s Grand Plans </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/realestate/keymagazine/15Key-lede-t.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/realestate/keymagazine/15Key-lede-t.html</a></p>
<p>-marc</p>
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		<title>By: Schtu</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4171</link>
		<dc:creator>Schtu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4171</guid>
		<description>I think Time of Day restrictions are a great idea. It would allow an incremental approach and the ability to fine tune traffic based on transit needs. I think it could also provide some insight into driver behavior for timed congestion pricing. (Which I personally do not think SF has the density to support yet.) I worry about creating a desolate street scape at night until a critical mass of housing and pedestrian activity can be maintained. 

Regarding Trinity Plaza, the fact that it is Modern is not its problem. If only it looked like Mies....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Time of Day restrictions are a great idea. It would allow an incremental approach and the ability to fine tune traffic based on transit needs. I think it could also provide some insight into driver behavior for timed congestion pricing. (Which I personally do not think SF has the density to support yet.) I worry about creating a desolate street scape at night until a critical mass of housing and pedestrian activity can be maintained. </p>
<p>Regarding Trinity Plaza, the fact that it is Modern is not its problem. If only it looked like Mies&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4166</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4166</guid>
		<description>Worldchanging had a good argument to apply to the question of Market becoming completely car free.  It is a scientific study that shows removing specific roads in a major city will actually decrease traffic congestion.  Interesting read:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//008957.html

Even if it were not completely car free, this next article shows that the way a street is built determines the speed of traffic.  Even by the picture on the top you can see that a road with pedestrian-permeable edges will reduce the speed of traffic immensely.  When a driver expects to see people in the street, that driver will drive more slowly, be more cautious or possibly even choose a different route.  Well worth your time:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//008746.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Worldchanging had a good argument to apply to the question of Market becoming completely car free.  It is a scientific study that shows removing specific roads in a major city will actually decrease traffic congestion.  Interesting read:<br />
<a href="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//008957.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//008957.html</a></p>
<p>Even if it were not completely car free, this next article shows that the way a street is built determines the speed of traffic.  Even by the picture on the top you can see that a road with pedestrian-permeable edges will reduce the speed of traffic immensely.  When a driver expects to see people in the street, that driver will drive more slowly, be more cautious or possibly even choose a different route.  Well worth your time:<br />
<a href="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//008746.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//008746.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: marcos</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4164</link>
		<dc:creator>marcos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 14:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4164</guid>
		<description>Even if the political will is found to make Market Street less private auto oriented, it will fall upon the SFPD and MTA to enforce this...

The design of the Trinity Plaza replacement project is somewhat constrained, as the condition of the deal was 100% replacement of rent controlled housing so as to prevent displacement of existing residents.

The new building that is going up on Mission parallel to the SOMA Grand, blocking its westward views(!), is the affordable tower.  Once that is complete, residents will be relocated from the Del Webb structures and they will be demolished and replaced with the artists&#039; rendering.

The good part about the new design is that it has a hole in it.  That part of Market Street is where the northern and westerly winds gain velocity as they come down the Hayes hill.  That there is a hole in the structure means that it will be a less worse wind player.

The problem with the coalition is that the Chamber of Commerce plays for keeps, and our advocates, not play for keeps.

-marc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if the political will is found to make Market Street less private auto oriented, it will fall upon the SFPD and MTA to enforce this&#8230;</p>
<p>The design of the Trinity Plaza replacement project is somewhat constrained, as the condition of the deal was 100% replacement of rent controlled housing so as to prevent displacement of existing residents.</p>
<p>The new building that is going up on Mission parallel to the SOMA Grand, blocking its westward views(!), is the affordable tower.  Once that is complete, residents will be relocated from the Del Webb structures and they will be demolished and replaced with the artists&#8217; rendering.</p>
<p>The good part about the new design is that it has a hole in it.  That part of Market Street is where the northern and westerly winds gain velocity as they come down the Hayes hill.  That there is a hole in the structure means that it will be a less worse wind player.</p>
<p>The problem with the coalition is that the Chamber of Commerce plays for keeps, and our advocates, not play for keeps.</p>
<p>-marc</p>
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		<title>By: CBrinkman</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4156</link>
		<dc:creator>CBrinkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4156</guid>
		<description>&quot; i.e. restrict traffic from traveling more than a block or two without turning off, &quot;  

Yes!  MTA could do that tomorrow; forced right turns for private cars at 8th and 5th heading down Market, no right or left turns onto Market from Montgomery or Battery etc. etc.  Why do we have to study everything to death - try it, if it doesn&#039;t work change it.

I prefer the term Car Lite Market Street, instead of Car Free.  There are not that many private autos going more then a block or two on Mkt but they mess things up but good, and they tend to be fancy expensive cars and SUVs....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; i.e. restrict traffic from traveling more than a block or two without turning off, &#8221;  </p>
<p>Yes!  MTA could do that tomorrow; forced right turns for private cars at 8th and 5th heading down Market, no right or left turns onto Market from Montgomery or Battery etc. etc.  Why do we have to study everything to death &#8211; try it, if it doesn&#8217;t work change it.</p>
<p>I prefer the term Car Lite Market Street, instead of Car Free.  There are not that many private autos going more then a block or two on Mkt but they mess things up but good, and they tend to be fancy expensive cars and SUVs&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4152</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4152</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;What’s more important is to have a street that’s vital, interesting, safe, active.&lt;/em&gt;

I like that kind of talk!  :D

can&#039;t say i&#039;m crazy about the anonymouse City Hall quotage. if the Mayor wants to participate in the discussion, fine, but it&#039;s got to be on equal terms with everybody else. if there is some compelling reason to grant someone anonymitiy - like their personal security - then fine, but absent that, let the chips fall where they may. if the story runs without comment from the Mayor, then it runs without comment from the Mayor by the choice of the Mayor - simple.

but, good article.

i think the interested parties should start sitting down with Daly and sorting out the issues -- put down some stakes and get to work. that&#039;s how democracy is supposed to work. we don&#039;t need the blessing of His Highness to proceed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>What’s more important is to have a street that’s vital, interesting, safe, active.</em></p>
<p>I like that kind of talk!  <img src='http://sf.streetsblog.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>can&#8217;t say i&#8217;m crazy about the anonymouse City Hall quotage. if the Mayor wants to participate in the discussion, fine, but it&#8217;s got to be on equal terms with everybody else. if there is some compelling reason to grant someone anonymitiy &#8211; like their personal security &#8211; then fine, but absent that, let the chips fall where they may. if the story runs without comment from the Mayor, then it runs without comment from the Mayor by the choice of the Mayor &#8211; simple.</p>
<p>but, good article.</p>
<p>i think the interested parties should start sitting down with Daly and sorting out the issues &#8212; put down some stakes and get to work. that&#8217;s how democracy is supposed to work. we don&#8217;t need the blessing of His Highness to proceed.</p>
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		<title>By: Lars</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4149</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4149</guid>
		<description>Car-free Market from 7 - 10 AM and 4 - 6 PM would be a great start/experiement.  Of course buses, transit, and bikes, would still be allowed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Car-free Market from 7 &#8211; 10 AM and 4 &#8211; 6 PM would be a great start/experiement.  Of course buses, transit, and bikes, would still be allowed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4148</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4148</guid>
		<description>Things would certianly move a lot quicker with Mayoral support. Timed restrictions on cars seems like a good next step. I would also agree that not having vehicle traffic late at night and early mornings would make the street too desolate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Things would certianly move a lot quicker with Mayoral support. Timed restrictions on cars seems like a good next step. I would also agree that not having vehicle traffic late at night and early mornings would make the street too desolate.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Siegel</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/16/the-clamor-for-a-better-market-street-grows-louder/comment-page-1/#comment-4147</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1743#comment-4147</guid>
		<description>&quot;Trinity Plaza ... will have multiple ground level uses, including a market, and most expect it to have a dramatic effect on that section of Market Street.&quot;

Judging from the rendering, it will make it dramatically uglier. 

There is no law saying that new development has to have slick, sterile, modernist architecture.  This design looks like the sort of thing Mies van der Rohe might have done 40 or 50 years ago.  It is no longer the 1950s, and we should move beyond mid-century modernism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Trinity Plaza &#8230; will have multiple ground level uses, including a market, and most expect it to have a dramatic effect on that section of Market Street.&#8221;</p>
<p>Judging from the rendering, it will make it dramatically uglier. </p>
<p>There is no law saying that new development has to have slick, sterile, modernist architecture.  This design looks like the sort of thing Mies van der Rohe might have done 40 or 50 years ago.  It is no longer the 1950s, and we should move beyond mid-century modernism.</p>
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