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	<title>Comments on: Cars Invade Golden Gate Park, Inner Sunset as Institutions Reopen</title>
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	<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/</link>
	<description>Covering San Francisco&#039;s livable streets movement</description>
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		<title>By: Tomtakt</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-58961</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomtakt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-58961</guid>
		<description>As someone who grew up in the east bay near a BART station, I&#039;ll tell you why I and most people have taken their cars to visit the museums:

Golden Gate Park is the Los Angeles of urban parks. It&#039;s sprawling, uninviting, and has too many roads.

I&#039;ve never seen a nice urban park that was criss-crossed by so many car-friendly roads. More importantly, the park lacks inviting pedestrian access. What is the natural path for pedestrians to get to the museums? South Blvd from 9th and Lincoln? Maybe if strolling past a LONG line of parked cars is your idea of experiencing what should be an urban oasis. 

And, of course, as mentioned, the transit access to the park is also mediocre at best.

Solution? How about we close all roads to cars except important through streets (Kezar and the Highway 1 crossover). Then, run a light rail branch off of the N Judah line up Cole St, and jog onto Page and into the park. Continue along the JFK Dr&#039;s alignment to the Concourse, and the line could terminate anywhere in the Richmond district, perhaps along Geary to connect to other/future transit. This line could even provide a nice, convenient alternative for some residents of the Richmond to get downtown with transit. It would be a relatively short, cheap line, making use of the existing infrastructure. A daytime/special event bus would bring visitors further into the park towards the ocean, and possibly out to Sutro baths.

Eventually, Kezar could hopefully be tunneled beneath this corner of the park, allowing for a beautiful grassy esplanade to serve as the natural entrance to the park for PEOPLE, instead of cars.

Easy for tourists, convenient for residents, good for San Francisco.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who grew up in the east bay near a BART station, I&#8217;ll tell you why I and most people have taken their cars to visit the museums:</p>
<p>Golden Gate Park is the Los Angeles of urban parks. It&#8217;s sprawling, uninviting, and has too many roads.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen a nice urban park that was criss-crossed by so many car-friendly roads. More importantly, the park lacks inviting pedestrian access. What is the natural path for pedestrians to get to the museums? South Blvd from 9th and Lincoln? Maybe if strolling past a LONG line of parked cars is your idea of experiencing what should be an urban oasis. </p>
<p>And, of course, as mentioned, the transit access to the park is also mediocre at best.</p>
<p>Solution? How about we close all roads to cars except important through streets (Kezar and the Highway 1 crossover). Then, run a light rail branch off of the N Judah line up Cole St, and jog onto Page and into the park. Continue along the JFK Dr&#8217;s alignment to the Concourse, and the line could terminate anywhere in the Richmond district, perhaps along Geary to connect to other/future transit. This line could even provide a nice, convenient alternative for some residents of the Richmond to get downtown with transit. It would be a relatively short, cheap line, making use of the existing infrastructure. A daytime/special event bus would bring visitors further into the park towards the ocean, and possibly out to Sutro baths.</p>
<p>Eventually, Kezar could hopefully be tunneled beneath this corner of the park, allowing for a beautiful grassy esplanade to serve as the natural entrance to the park for PEOPLE, instead of cars.</p>
<p>Easy for tourists, convenient for residents, good for San Francisco.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveO</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4802</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4802</guid>
		<description>Another advantage of trains (espeically Subways) is the fact that there are clearly named Stations, and the station platforms generally clearly indicate which direction is which.  You can easily tell someone to get on Bart towards the East Bay and exit at Embarcadero, etc.

Light rail is a bit sketchier, primarily because very few of the &quot;stations&quot; have names that are clearly identifiable on a map, or even marked clearly on the platform itself.  I want to see big signs on island platforms that say &quot;9th and Irving&quot; or &quot;24th and Church&quot; that correspond in large font on a transit map.

The buses are a complete disaster in this regard.  You look at a map, and you have no idea where the stops are, what they are called.  And many of the stops are marked just by swatches of yellow paint on the ground or on a utility pole.  A tourist or a day tripper is not going to be bothered to learn such a convoluted system, so they will stick to transit modes where stations are clearly identifiable and easy to figure out.  One of the big disappointments of the TEP, if it ever gets implemented, is that there doesn&#039;t seem to be much of an effort to take those identified &quot;crosstown&quot; routes, reduce stops and then enhance the remaining ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another advantage of trains (espeically Subways) is the fact that there are clearly named Stations, and the station platforms generally clearly indicate which direction is which.  You can easily tell someone to get on Bart towards the East Bay and exit at Embarcadero, etc.</p>
<p>Light rail is a bit sketchier, primarily because very few of the &#8220;stations&#8221; have names that are clearly identifiable on a map, or even marked clearly on the platform itself.  I want to see big signs on island platforms that say &#8220;9th and Irving&#8221; or &#8220;24th and Church&#8221; that correspond in large font on a transit map.</p>
<p>The buses are a complete disaster in this regard.  You look at a map, and you have no idea where the stops are, what they are called.  And many of the stops are marked just by swatches of yellow paint on the ground or on a utility pole.  A tourist or a day tripper is not going to be bothered to learn such a convoluted system, so they will stick to transit modes where stations are clearly identifiable and easy to figure out.  One of the big disappointments of the TEP, if it ever gets implemented, is that there doesn&#8217;t seem to be much of an effort to take those identified &#8220;crosstown&#8221; routes, reduce stops and then enhance the remaining ones.</p>
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		<title>By: h</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4801</link>
		<dc:creator>h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4801</guid>
		<description>there are obvious advantages to subways -- generally fast and reliable. Buses have the reputation (and some reality, BRT and express buses excepted) of unreliability and slowness, generally due to the fact that they have to stop every block or two at stop signs and lights, have to mix with traffic, etc etc. And of course, non-locals don&#039;t have the time or inclination to sit down and study an intricate map of SF and figure out the web of the bus network. It&#039;s easy to just look at where the bold lines on the regional maps go. Why are out-of-towners and suburbanites drawn to these lines (e.g. N-Judah) do surface light rail lines that share those same features once they leave the tunnel? It&#039;s largely marketing and perception. If you were to start from the intersection of Market and Van Ness and raced to get to 9th Avenue on either the 71-Noriega or N-Judah, it would be quite a race, and I bet the 71 would beat it much of the time. In fact, according to the published schedule, on Sundays it takes 22 minutes for the 71 to get from Van Ness to 19th Ave, and it takes the N-Judah 21 minutes. Identical! The answer to question, then, as someone pointed out is marketing. If Muni was more savvy, they would design, publish, and promote maps that represent core bus lines in the same way that they represent rail lines -- big, thick lines on maps with key stops indicated. The very savvy BART maps (with the BART lines in big thick swaths on the map) show light-rail lines, but they don&#039;t show bus lines. When you get down to it, it&#039;s arbitrary and does not necessarily represent the most significant, fast, or reliable routes that connect to BART -- it&#039;s just a bias toward representing rail on a map and not buses. Muni really should tell BART what they should show on their maps, and MTC should coordinate to produce better regional maps. It&#039;s probably more useful to show the 38-Geary on a regional transit map than it is to show the M-Oceanview, or even the J-Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there are obvious advantages to subways &#8212; generally fast and reliable. Buses have the reputation (and some reality, BRT and express buses excepted) of unreliability and slowness, generally due to the fact that they have to stop every block or two at stop signs and lights, have to mix with traffic, etc etc. And of course, non-locals don&#8217;t have the time or inclination to sit down and study an intricate map of SF and figure out the web of the bus network. It&#8217;s easy to just look at where the bold lines on the regional maps go. Why are out-of-towners and suburbanites drawn to these lines (e.g. N-Judah) do surface light rail lines that share those same features once they leave the tunnel? It&#8217;s largely marketing and perception. If you were to start from the intersection of Market and Van Ness and raced to get to 9th Avenue on either the 71-Noriega or N-Judah, it would be quite a race, and I bet the 71 would beat it much of the time. In fact, according to the published schedule, on Sundays it takes 22 minutes for the 71 to get from Van Ness to 19th Ave, and it takes the N-Judah 21 minutes. Identical! The answer to question, then, as someone pointed out is marketing. If Muni was more savvy, they would design, publish, and promote maps that represent core bus lines in the same way that they represent rail lines &#8212; big, thick lines on maps with key stops indicated. The very savvy BART maps (with the BART lines in big thick swaths on the map) show light-rail lines, but they don&#8217;t show bus lines. When you get down to it, it&#8217;s arbitrary and does not necessarily represent the most significant, fast, or reliable routes that connect to BART &#8212; it&#8217;s just a bias toward representing rail on a map and not buses. Muni really should tell BART what they should show on their maps, and MTC should coordinate to produce better regional maps. It&#8217;s probably more useful to show the 38-Geary on a regional transit map than it is to show the M-Oceanview, or even the J-Church.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4799</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4799</guid>
		<description>Zig, a lot of suburban people in cities like Chicago and NYC feel comfortable riding the train into the city. They know they&#039;ll end up at a safe destination, with no transfers or confusion.  It&#039;s a lot like BART in that way.

But ask them to transfer to a bus, and then you&#039;ll see the real difference between them and urbanites. 

Buses are scary to suburbanites -- they don&#039;t know where they go, they might get on the wrong direction, and they might get off at the wrong stop and get stuck in some frightening housing project. (And yeah, the people on buses scare some of them too.)

To overcome these fears, you really have to hold their hand and give very specific directions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zig, a lot of suburban people in cities like Chicago and NYC feel comfortable riding the train into the city. They know they&#8217;ll end up at a safe destination, with no transfers or confusion.  It&#8217;s a lot like BART in that way.</p>
<p>But ask them to transfer to a bus, and then you&#8217;ll see the real difference between them and urbanites. </p>
<p>Buses are scary to suburbanites &#8212; they don&#8217;t know where they go, they might get on the wrong direction, and they might get off at the wrong stop and get stuck in some frightening housing project. (And yeah, the people on buses scare some of them too.)</p>
<p>To overcome these fears, you really have to hold their hand and give very specific directions.</p>
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		<title>By: zig</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4797</link>
		<dc:creator>zig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4797</guid>
		<description>Caltrain to the N works sort of if you really don&#039;t care about your time.  I imagine that the day Caltrain goes all the way to the TransBay is the day this becomes viable for a family.

My fiancee&#039;s mom lives in the suburds of Chicago and as we have friends in the city we are always taking the commuter trains in and out on the weekends.  Many families, groups of ladies shopping and young people ride into the city on a Saturday and it appears to be quite normal.  This is what is needed in the Bay Area</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caltrain to the N works sort of if you really don&#8217;t care about your time.  I imagine that the day Caltrain goes all the way to the TransBay is the day this becomes viable for a family.</p>
<p>My fiancee&#8217;s mom lives in the suburds of Chicago and as we have friends in the city we are always taking the commuter trains in and out on the weekends.  Many families, groups of ladies shopping and young people ride into the city on a Saturday and it appears to be quite normal.  This is what is needed in the Bay Area</p>
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		<title>By: taomom</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4794</link>
		<dc:creator>taomom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4794</guid>
		<description>Matt,

Thanks for sending the better directions to the Academy.  (Caltrain to the N works, too, and Caltrain is a really nice option for folks south of Millbrae.)  I agree that crystal clear directions are essential.

I also agree that San Francisco needs to do a better job promoting Muni outside the city.  People in other parts of the Bay area often do not know where Muni goes or are too intimidated to take it.  I honestly know people who have lived their whole life in Marin who did not know that there was an entire subway system below Market Street until I took them on it.  Ah well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>Thanks for sending the better directions to the Academy.  (Caltrain to the N works, too, and Caltrain is a really nice option for folks south of Millbrae.)  I agree that crystal clear directions are essential.</p>
<p>I also agree that San Francisco needs to do a better job promoting Muni outside the city.  People in other parts of the Bay area often do not know where Muni goes or are too intimidated to take it.  I honestly know people who have lived their whole life in Marin who did not know that there was an entire subway system below Market Street until I took them on it.  Ah well.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4793</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4793</guid>
		<description>No wonder they&#039;re having congestion problems. Has anyone looked at the Academy&#039;s website to see what kind of transit directions they&#039;re giving? It&#039;s really not well thought out.

http://www.calacademy.org/visit/getting_here/

I just sent the following email to the info@calacademy.org address. Please feel free to contact them too if you agree with me about this.

------------

I appreciate that the academy is trying to promote public transit as the best way to visit, but the current web page is not well thought out. Far too many choices are given, which confuses people who are not frequent transit users and actually makes them unlikely to use public transit.

For example, why is there a &quot;Market Street Alternative Route&quot; &quot;If you prefer not to take the N-Judah streetcar&quot;? Why would someone ever prefer not to take the faster option? For that matter, why are there 4 options from City Hall?

As an illustration of the kind of directions you should be providing, here are two examples. They&#039;re not perfect, but they&#039;re more specific and useful than the current directions. They tell visitors exactly where to transfer, and how quickly they will arrive at the museum.

----------

From the Peninsula on BART:

Get off at Glen Park station and transfer to the #44-O&#039;Shaughnessy bus (inbound direction to California &amp; 6th) directly across Bosworth street from the station. In about 17 minutes, you will arrive in front of the museum.

From the East Bay on BART:

At Civic Center station, transfer to the Muni Metro subway, one level above BART. Take the N-Judah in the outbound direction. In about 15 minutes, get off at the 9th and Irving stop, and walk 5 minutes north on 9th Avenue into Golden Gate Park.

---------

Thanks very much for listening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No wonder they&#8217;re having congestion problems. Has anyone looked at the Academy&#8217;s website to see what kind of transit directions they&#8217;re giving? It&#8217;s really not well thought out.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.calacademy.org/visit/getting_here/" rel="nofollow">http://www.calacademy.org/visit/getting_here/</a></p>
<p>I just sent the following email to the <a href="mailto:info@calacademy.org">info@calacademy.org</a> address. Please feel free to contact them too if you agree with me about this.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>I appreciate that the academy is trying to promote public transit as the best way to visit, but the current web page is not well thought out. Far too many choices are given, which confuses people who are not frequent transit users and actually makes them unlikely to use public transit.</p>
<p>For example, why is there a &#8220;Market Street Alternative Route&#8221; &#8220;If you prefer not to take the N-Judah streetcar&#8221;? Why would someone ever prefer not to take the faster option? For that matter, why are there 4 options from City Hall?</p>
<p>As an illustration of the kind of directions you should be providing, here are two examples. They&#8217;re not perfect, but they&#8217;re more specific and useful than the current directions. They tell visitors exactly where to transfer, and how quickly they will arrive at the museum.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>From the Peninsula on BART:</p>
<p>Get off at Glen Park station and transfer to the #44-O&#8217;Shaughnessy bus (inbound direction to California &amp; 6th) directly across Bosworth street from the station. In about 17 minutes, you will arrive in front of the museum.</p>
<p>From the East Bay on BART:</p>
<p>At Civic Center station, transfer to the Muni Metro subway, one level above BART. Take the N-Judah in the outbound direction. In about 15 minutes, get off at the 9th and Irving stop, and walk 5 minutes north on 9th Avenue into Golden Gate Park.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>Thanks very much for listening.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Andrzejewski</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4792</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Andrzejewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4792</guid>
		<description>One challenge for implementing a B-Geary or G-GG Park line is the need for another rail yard for that segment of the city.

Solution: create spurs along 9th for the N and along 6th/8th for the B/G and make the parking garage a new station/ railyard for Muni.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One challenge for implementing a B-Geary or G-GG Park line is the need for another rail yard for that segment of the city.</p>
<p>Solution: create spurs along 9th for the N and along 6th/8th for the B/G and make the parking garage a new station/ railyard for Muni.</p>
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		<title>By: marcos</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4791</link>
		<dc:creator>marcos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4791</guid>
		<description>@h, point taken, but the entire tenor of the TEP has been that you might have to walk a few more blocks to service that is more reliable, and that thesis has been used against service in other neighborhoods successfully.

Living near 16th/Mission, you could imagine the palpitations I suffered when I opened up the PDF of the TEP&#039;s first realignment proposals and saw the differences between the 33 and 24 split up, swapped and rejoined like some Frankenstein experiment gone all wrong.  Fortunately that was euthanized.

The 33 is also a &quot;hospital line,&quot; with SFGH, St. Mary&#039;s and Children&#039;s Hospital as well as the Mission Health Center.  Eliminating service on Stanyan would cut off St. Marys from the mix.

The other option is to blow off the Inner Sunset and route the 33 to the west into the park at Fell, with stops at the McLaren Lodge, Conservatory of Flowers, Music Concourse/Museums and right onto 8th Ave, left back onto Fulton and to Arguello and the end of the line.  That would cut out the nasty Stanyan/Fulton knot and still have similar service within a few blocks with a few stops removed, again a TEP priority.  But that would not serve the UCSF connection which was part of the justification for the G Line.

Often ideas that one just pulls out of one&#039;s ass smell somewhat like ass.

-marc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@h, point taken, but the entire tenor of the TEP has been that you might have to walk a few more blocks to service that is more reliable, and that thesis has been used against service in other neighborhoods successfully.</p>
<p>Living near 16th/Mission, you could imagine the palpitations I suffered when I opened up the PDF of the TEP&#8217;s first realignment proposals and saw the differences between the 33 and 24 split up, swapped and rejoined like some Frankenstein experiment gone all wrong.  Fortunately that was euthanized.</p>
<p>The 33 is also a &#8220;hospital line,&#8221; with SFGH, St. Mary&#8217;s and Children&#8217;s Hospital as well as the Mission Health Center.  Eliminating service on Stanyan would cut off St. Marys from the mix.</p>
<p>The other option is to blow off the Inner Sunset and route the 33 to the west into the park at Fell, with stops at the McLaren Lodge, Conservatory of Flowers, Music Concourse/Museums and right onto 8th Ave, left back onto Fulton and to Arguello and the end of the line.  That would cut out the nasty Stanyan/Fulton knot and still have similar service within a few blocks with a few stops removed, again a TEP priority.  But that would not serve the UCSF connection which was part of the justification for the G Line.</p>
<p>Often ideas that one just pulls out of one&#8217;s ass smell somewhat like ass.</p>
<p>-marc</p>
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		<title>By: John Murphy</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4790</link>
		<dc:creator>John Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4790</guid>
		<description>@marcos actually the 33 does not go through Noe Valley.

*rimshot*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@marcos actually the 33 does not go through Noe Valley.</p>
<p>*rimshot*</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Vaughan</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4789</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Vaughan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4789</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s great that people are discussing the solutions to the traffic congestion caused by the attractions in the GGP.  However, there fewer than two weeks left to participate in the NEPA public comment period for the proposed Contemporary Art Museum in the Presidio (the CAMP).  The close of the public comment period is April 27.  There will also be a meeting at the Golden Gate Club, near the Main Post, about transportation issues on April 22 at 6:30 pm.  Now is the time to make sure the problems being experienced in GGP and the Inner Sunset are not reproduced in and around the Presidio.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s great that people are discussing the solutions to the traffic congestion caused by the attractions in the GGP.  However, there fewer than two weeks left to participate in the NEPA public comment period for the proposed Contemporary Art Museum in the Presidio (the CAMP).  The close of the public comment period is April 27.  There will also be a meeting at the Golden Gate Club, near the Main Post, about transportation issues on April 22 at 6:30 pm.  Now is the time to make sure the problems being experienced in GGP and the Inner Sunset are not reproduced in and around the Presidio.</p>
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		<title>By: h</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4788</link>
		<dc:creator>h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4788</guid>
		<description>2 topics:

(1) 33 line

I strongly beg to disagree with marc about the 33 line. The Stanyan portion is an integral part of the route (ie it serves my house). But as someone who rides the 33 regularly starting on Stanyan and heading in both directions (either to the Mission or to connect to the 38 on Geary), and relies on the 33 to support a daily car-free life, I can tell it is heavily used in this segment and is critical to serving the north panhandle, lone mountain, and inner richmond in a direct way without a ridiculous circuitous jaunt several blocks east through the park to serve a museum. As you pointed out -- the 33 is the all-cool neighborhood connector, one of the most useful lines in the City, and it would severely degrade its purpose by rerouting through the park.

(2) location of museums
We have to face reality and look at priorities in terms of land use. We could take up prime land near regional transit in the downtown for a museum with a huge footprint, or we could use that same space for a much greater density of jobs, housing, shopping, etc. We&#039;re certainly not going to put the offices in the middle of GGPark, so let&#039;s be real here. There&#039;s room for a few big cultural attractions downtown near BART. But we&#039;re near maxxed out on room for them. There&#039;s room for a couple more moderate sized ones -- for instance the Exploratorium is moving to one of the remaining major piers along the Embarcadero. But more museum expansion in the downtown is not serving us or the region very well. While I have myself in the past criticized these institutions for not locating themselves in more transit accessible locations, I&#039;ve come to realize that our priority for using scarce land in the middle of downtown next to BART really isn&#039;t the de Young museum. We just need to do a better job at improving transit to the Park and other locations. The dumb Culture Bus certainly isn&#039;t the answer, but we can&#039;t pick everything up and move it downtown. We&#039;d need a few more downtowns for that. And on top of that, I rather enjoy some of these civic institutions in the park.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2 topics:</p>
<p>(1) 33 line</p>
<p>I strongly beg to disagree with marc about the 33 line. The Stanyan portion is an integral part of the route (ie it serves my house). But as someone who rides the 33 regularly starting on Stanyan and heading in both directions (either to the Mission or to connect to the 38 on Geary), and relies on the 33 to support a daily car-free life, I can tell it is heavily used in this segment and is critical to serving the north panhandle, lone mountain, and inner richmond in a direct way without a ridiculous circuitous jaunt several blocks east through the park to serve a museum. As you pointed out &#8212; the 33 is the all-cool neighborhood connector, one of the most useful lines in the City, and it would severely degrade its purpose by rerouting through the park.</p>
<p>(2) location of museums<br />
We have to face reality and look at priorities in terms of land use. We could take up prime land near regional transit in the downtown for a museum with a huge footprint, or we could use that same space for a much greater density of jobs, housing, shopping, etc. We&#8217;re certainly not going to put the offices in the middle of GGPark, so let&#8217;s be real here. There&#8217;s room for a few big cultural attractions downtown near BART. But we&#8217;re near maxxed out on room for them. There&#8217;s room for a couple more moderate sized ones &#8212; for instance the Exploratorium is moving to one of the remaining major piers along the Embarcadero. But more museum expansion in the downtown is not serving us or the region very well. While I have myself in the past criticized these institutions for not locating themselves in more transit accessible locations, I&#8217;ve come to realize that our priority for using scarce land in the middle of downtown next to BART really isn&#8217;t the de Young museum. We just need to do a better job at improving transit to the Park and other locations. The dumb Culture Bus certainly isn&#8217;t the answer, but we can&#8217;t pick everything up and move it downtown. We&#8217;d need a few more downtowns for that. And on top of that, I rather enjoy some of these civic institutions in the park.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveO</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4785</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4785</guid>
		<description>Getting to the Music Concourse from Berkeley via public transit is one of the easiest travel itineraries in the Bay Area - BART to the N.  The problem is tourists or people from Marin or the Peninsula or even other parts of SF.  People who would be coming to the museums would take a train and other forms of (mostly) grade-separated transit, but will not try to navigate SF&#039;s maze of buses.  If the trip involves a bus or some other mode of transit which doesn&#039;t have clearly identifiable stations, they will drive.  It&#039;s why a G-line to the Park might work, where the CultureBus (worst...name...ever...) clearly failed.

Maybe that will change a bit if the bus is marketed differently like BRT and is a visibly different experience, but I know that whenever I visit a strange city, I look at their subway and train map and do not bother trying to understand their bus system.  Build more grade-separated trains, for sure.  But until that happens, the only way to get people out of their cars is to let them park near those trains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting to the Music Concourse from Berkeley via public transit is one of the easiest travel itineraries in the Bay Area &#8211; BART to the N.  The problem is tourists or people from Marin or the Peninsula or even other parts of SF.  People who would be coming to the museums would take a train and other forms of (mostly) grade-separated transit, but will not try to navigate SF&#8217;s maze of buses.  If the trip involves a bus or some other mode of transit which doesn&#8217;t have clearly identifiable stations, they will drive.  It&#8217;s why a G-line to the Park might work, where the CultureBus (worst&#8230;name&#8230;ever&#8230;) clearly failed.</p>
<p>Maybe that will change a bit if the bus is marketed differently like BRT and is a visibly different experience, but I know that whenever I visit a strange city, I look at their subway and train map and do not bother trying to understand their bus system.  Build more grade-separated trains, for sure.  But until that happens, the only way to get people out of their cars is to let them park near those trains.</p>
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		<title>By: marcos</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4784</link>
		<dc:creator>marcos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4784</guid>
		<description>@Michael, since the 33 is the &quot;all cool neighborhoods bus,&quot; a fantasy would be for it to continue its alignment to Stanyan and Haight but to turn left/south there and serve the Inner Sunse via Lincoln to 9th, continuing a 44-like route through the Golden Gate Park, but a bit further east to come out on Arguello and Fulton.

The worst part of the 33 is the Stanyan to Fulton, and if the alignment went down Lincoln to 9th Ave and into the park, then that would add a cool neighborhood, the park attractions and probably increase the travel time from the Mission to the Richmond by 10 min.

This would all require several more miles of overhead wire, along Lincoln and through the park, @ $1m/mi.  Maybe the parking revenues from the garage can subsidize that!

-marc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Michael, since the 33 is the &#8220;all cool neighborhoods bus,&#8221; a fantasy would be for it to continue its alignment to Stanyan and Haight but to turn left/south there and serve the Inner Sunse via Lincoln to 9th, continuing a 44-like route through the Golden Gate Park, but a bit further east to come out on Arguello and Fulton.</p>
<p>The worst part of the 33 is the Stanyan to Fulton, and if the alignment went down Lincoln to 9th Ave and into the park, then that would add a cool neighborhood, the park attractions and probably increase the travel time from the Mission to the Richmond by 10 min.</p>
<p>This would all require several more miles of overhead wire, along Lincoln and through the park, @ $1m/mi.  Maybe the parking revenues from the garage can subsidize that!</p>
<p>-marc</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4778</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4778</guid>
		<description>I always believed Irving from (7th to 11th) and 9th from (Judah to Lincoln) should be pedestrianized. 

Inner Sunset is one of The City&#039;s most lively shopping and eating neighborhoods, but cars ruin it and make it dangerous. People are crowded onto the sidewalks. Crossing the street on foot is hair-raising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always believed Irving from (7th to 11th) and 9th from (Judah to Lincoln) should be pedestrianized. </p>
<p>Inner Sunset is one of The City&#8217;s most lively shopping and eating neighborhoods, but cars ruin it and make it dangerous. People are crowded onto the sidewalks. Crossing the street on foot is hair-raising.</p>
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		<title>By: jon winston</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4777</link>
		<dc:creator>jon winston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4777</guid>
		<description>As a resident of the traffic clogged clogged Glen Park area, I have five words regarding a big garage near the BART station: Not In My Back Yard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a resident of the traffic clogged clogged Glen Park area, I have five words regarding a big garage near the BART station: Not In My Back Yard.</p>
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		<title>By: John Murphy</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4776</link>
		<dc:creator>John Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4776</guid>
		<description>@Charles and @Jeffrey Baker - the best option from any BART station in the system for my money is to take BART to Glen Park and then take the 44. The 44 is quite expedient up O&#039;Shaugnessy and down Woodside/Laguna Honda/7th. Of course you then hit the GG Park Bottleneck on heavy DeYoung/Academy days. But it drops you off at the front door of the Academy of Science. This also addresses DaveO&#039;s concept of parking at transit - Millbrae/SSF/San Bruno parking lots are never even close to full, and I think the same is true of Colma. Strange but true - I have seen with my own eyes Peninsula families using this option. For kids the zippy ride into SF along 280 from Colma to Glen Park is pretty cool.

They should put special discount coupons for the Academy in the hands of the driver of the 44 to give out to riders of that specific line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charles and @Jeffrey Baker &#8211; the best option from any BART station in the system for my money is to take BART to Glen Park and then take the 44. The 44 is quite expedient up O&#8217;Shaugnessy and down Woodside/Laguna Honda/7th. Of course you then hit the GG Park Bottleneck on heavy DeYoung/Academy days. But it drops you off at the front door of the Academy of Science. This also addresses DaveO&#8217;s concept of parking at transit &#8211; Millbrae/SSF/San Bruno parking lots are never even close to full, and I think the same is true of Colma. Strange but true &#8211; I have seen with my own eyes Peninsula families using this option. For kids the zippy ride into SF along 280 from Colma to Glen Park is pretty cool.</p>
<p>They should put special discount coupons for the Academy in the hands of the driver of the 44 to give out to riders of that specific line.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Siegel</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4772</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4772</guid>
		<description>Those parking lots with transit connections would not help someone like me, who wants to come from Berkeley by BART.  They made an error by placing the museum where it is not accessible by transit.  There were proposals to rebuild it in downtown, where it would have been easily accessible, but unfortunately that opportunity was missed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those parking lots with transit connections would not help someone like me, who wants to come from Berkeley by BART.  They made an error by placing the museum where it is not accessible by transit.  There were proposals to rebuild it in downtown, where it would have been easily accessible, but unfortunately that opportunity was missed.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Vaughan</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4771</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Vaughan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4771</guid>
		<description>The Culture Bus costs $7 for the day, but riders get a $3 discount at the CAS and a $2 discount at the de Young -- making it a total of a $2 bus ride.

Aside from this point, there are major issues that could not be addressed due to time constraints and word limits:

1) How do Recreation and Parks, the Music Concourse Community Partnership, and the Concourse Authority intend to fulfill the mandate of Proposition J and turn the concourse into a pedestrian oasis?

2) Muni riders such as myself know that Muni service -- the 44, 71, N-Judah, 5, and 21 all run near the portion of the park that attracts the most car traffic -- is seriously eroded by traffic congestion.  If there is no current analysis on the impact of congestion on Muni service and the overall of economic health of the city, one should be commissioned;  And,

2) Knowing what we know about traffic in and around GGP, do we really want to go forward with putting the CAMP in the Main Post of the Presidio?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Culture Bus costs $7 for the day, but riders get a $3 discount at the CAS and a $2 discount at the de Young &#8212; making it a total of a $2 bus ride.</p>
<p>Aside from this point, there are major issues that could not be addressed due to time constraints and word limits:</p>
<p>1) How do Recreation and Parks, the Music Concourse Community Partnership, and the Concourse Authority intend to fulfill the mandate of Proposition J and turn the concourse into a pedestrian oasis?</p>
<p>2) Muni riders such as myself know that Muni service &#8212; the 44, 71, N-Judah, 5, and 21 all run near the portion of the park that attracts the most car traffic &#8212; is seriously eroded by traffic congestion.  If there is no current analysis on the impact of congestion on Muni service and the overall of economic health of the city, one should be commissioned;  And,</p>
<p>2) Knowing what we know about traffic in and around GGP, do we really want to go forward with putting the CAMP in the Main Post of the Presidio?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim F.</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/16/cars-invade-golden-gate-park-inner-sunset-as-institutions-reopen/comment-page-1/#comment-4768</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1952#comment-4768</guid>
		<description>Greg, I agree with you. No one in Muni wanted the Culture bus. It came down from on high and it was put out. It started last fall after the tourist season and is now probably going to be cut. You can always take the 21 or 5 out there and get almost as close for $1.50 (maybe $2 in the future).

About the Museums: what are you going to do out there? When the Asian moved downtown everyone out there wanted to make sure the rest stayed b/c they wanted to make sure they could drive to them. So, a huge garage is built and now they can drive there. As the one commissioner said &quot;it was not unexpected.

Signs would be a good idea and so would closing a larger section of JFK on Saturdays. I never go to the park except on Sundays b/c you don&#039;t see the cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, I agree with you. No one in Muni wanted the Culture bus. It came down from on high and it was put out. It started last fall after the tourist season and is now probably going to be cut. You can always take the 21 or 5 out there and get almost as close for $1.50 (maybe $2 in the future).</p>
<p>About the Museums: what are you going to do out there? When the Asian moved downtown everyone out there wanted to make sure the rest stayed b/c they wanted to make sure they could drive to them. So, a huge garage is built and now they can drive there. As the one commissioner said &#8220;it was not unexpected.</p>
<p>Signs would be a good idea and so would closing a larger section of JFK on Saturdays. I never go to the park except on Sundays b/c you don&#8217;t see the cars.</p>
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