Comments on: The Rear Door Problem With Muni’s New Hybrid Buses http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/ Covering San Francisco's livable streets movement Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:16:44 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Gary Franceschini http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-5215 Gary Franceschini Mon, 04 May 2009 18:09:55 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-5215 @taomom: "Why did this never register with me?" I would argue that (apart from not wanting to kill yourself on the steps) it's because a door is a door is a door. The day we need instructions for opening a damn door is the day we need to revisit the design. @taomom: "Why did this never register with me?"

I would argue that (apart from not wanting to kill yourself on the steps) it's because a door is a door is a door. The day we need instructions for opening a damn door is the day we need to revisit the design.

]]> By: Valerie http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4948 Valerie Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:39:04 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4948 We had it right the first time - "Step Down to Open Door". Do you really want everyone getting off the bus to touch the same place? Just public-health wise, it's better to use the bottom of your shoe than your hand to open the door. Further, stepping down to open the door is much more convenient if your hands are full, or you're on crutches, or any of the other infinite reasons you might not have a hand available. It wasn't broken, and now it's been "fixed". We had it right the first time - "Step Down to Open Door". Do you really want everyone getting off the bus to touch the same place? Just public-health wise, it's better to use the bottom of your shoe than your hand to open the door. Further, stepping down to open the door is much more convenient if your hands are full, or you're on crutches, or any of the other infinite reasons you might not have a hand available. It wasn't broken, and now it's been "fixed".

]]> By: DanB http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4891 DanB Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:14:53 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4891 Oh, and I think part of the interface problem is painting the bars on the sides of the exit doors the same color as the sticker (or vice-versa, if you prefer). I see people pulling and pushing on those bars all the time when trying to get the back door to open. People half-read the sticker or just do a quick color association and think yellow hardware = exit. Bad. Oh, and I think part of the interface problem is painting the bars on the sides of the exit doors the same color as the sticker (or vice-versa, if you prefer). I see people pulling and pushing on those bars all the time when trying to get the back door to open. People half-read the sticker or just do a quick color association and think yellow hardware = exit. Bad.

]]> By: DanB http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4890 DanB Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:11:52 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4890 They've already revised the door stickers at least once; version 1.0 were English only, in black type. No one read them. The new ones are longer, multi-lingual and in blocky red type. No one reads them, either. They've already revised the door stickers at least once; version 1.0 were English only, in black type. No one read them. The new ones are longer, multi-lingual and in blocky red type. No one reads them, either.

]]> By: Sasha http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4887 Sasha Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:00:43 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4887 I dream of the day when we're a POP-only system (yes to standardizing on the terms "ticket" and "pass"!) and all of the back doors open automatically at every stop, because the drivers are no longer required to prevent people from boarding through them! I dream of the day when we're a POP-only system (yes to standardizing on the terms "ticket" and "pass"!) and all of the back doors open automatically at every stop, because the drivers are no longer required to prevent people from boarding through them!

]]> By: david vartanoff http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4883 david vartanoff Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:49:23 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4883 @Mark. Actually Muni COULD have spec'd the doors pretty much any way they wanted. The prime vendor responds to specs from Muni, they can for instance insist on double stream doors which many others do not. No, probably in this stolen funding crisis we can't afford to correct this particular mistake, BUT system standards make riding better. Other than bus geeks, who wants to have to know the various models? @Mark. Actually Muni COULD have spec'd the doors pretty much any way they wanted. The prime vendor responds to specs from Muni, they can for instance insist on double stream doors which many others do not. No, probably in this stolen funding crisis we can't afford to correct this particular mistake, BUT system standards make riding better.
Other than bus geeks, who wants to have to know the various models?

]]> By: Mark Ballew http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4882 Mark Ballew Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:42:22 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4882 I don't think Muni should worry about the touch bars, patrons simply need to be more patient when waiting for the doors to open. We don't need to slice out another $1M out of the $129M deficit to fix something as simple as exit bars. Make some new stickers to re-explain how to use the door and that's that. Yes, Muni has a collection of door opening technology, but not all the buses were bought at the same time and from the same vendor since bus companies tend to turn over. It's silly to waste money when there is a fleet of almost 1000 buses and trains that all need regular maintenance. I don't think Muni should worry about the touch bars, patrons simply need to be more patient when waiting for the doors to open. We don't need to slice out another $1M out of the $129M deficit to fix something as simple as exit bars. Make some new stickers to re-explain how to use the door and that's that.

Yes, Muni has a collection of door opening technology, but not all the buses were bought at the same time and from the same vendor since bus companies tend to turn over. It's silly to waste money when there is a fleet of almost 1000 buses and trains that all need regular maintenance.

]]> By: Eric http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4881 Eric Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:12:18 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4881 VTA buses had this same problem years ago. Funny how the problem moved north with no resolution. VTA buses had this same problem years ago. Funny how the problem moved north with no resolution.

]]> By: theo http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4880 theo Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:28:18 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4880 <i>I don't know whether the French have put more time and effort into human factors, ergonomic or user experience research on automated systems, or whether there just happens to be more attention to the "feel" of such systems due to cultural influences.</i> As a gross overgeneralization, a primary characteristic of French engineering is their propensity for refining and polishing. Less innovative than American engineering, less complex than Japanese engineering. It's like the Millau viaduct vs. the Bay Bridge. I don't know whether the French have put more time and effort into human factors, ergonomic or user experience research on automated systems, or whether there just happens to be more attention to the "feel" of such systems due to cultural influences.

As a gross overgeneralization, a primary characteristic of French engineering is their propensity for refining and polishing. Less innovative than American engineering, less complex than Japanese engineering.

It's like the Millau viaduct vs. the Bay Bridge.

]]> By: Alex http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4878 Alex Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:27:01 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4878 I was caught by this too. I can't believe the UI design of these doors. When did it become acceptable to typeset the English language vertically? What's with the bizarre allcaps font? It's the same yellow as the bars, so easily tuned out as background foo. And how hard would it be to make the doors open when the bus is stopped and someone's shoving on them? I was caught by this too. I can't believe the UI design of these doors. When did it become acceptable to typeset the English language vertically? What's with the bizarre allcaps font? It's the same yellow as the bars, so easily tuned out as background foo. And how hard would it be to make the doors open when the bus is stopped and someone's shoving on them?

]]> By: Greg http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4877 Greg Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:23:25 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4877 another endless spiral of bs thanks to poor interface design. I was one of the "punch the door" people until someone showed me that all I had to do was put my hand on the door and voila! it opened fine. you don't even need to touch the doors, just put your hand where it's supposed to go. Of course the stupid stickers don't make that clear and no one tells you that, so user interface FAIL. but another lesson - saying "low floor low floor" is not a panacea for transit ills. and if you can show me a low floor train car that can handle SF's bumpy roads (sorry the N Judah does not ride on a flat surface most of the time) well then let's get those and sell these Bredas to China or something. another endless spiral of bs thanks to poor interface design. I was one of the "punch the door" people until someone showed me that all I had to do was put my hand on the door and voila! it opened fine.

you don't even need to touch the doors, just put your hand where it's supposed to go. Of course the stupid stickers don't make that clear and no one tells you that, so user interface FAIL.

but another lesson - saying "low floor low floor" is not a panacea for transit ills. and if you can show me a low floor train car that can handle SF's bumpy roads (sorry the N Judah does not ride on a flat surface most of the time) well then let's get those and sell these Bredas to China or something.

]]> By: Jane H. http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4876 Jane H. Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:15:12 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4876 I don't know, I've never had any problem opening those doors. I give them a light touch, and they open easily most of the time for me. I think people just need to read the instructions/pay more attention. I don't know, I've never had any problem opening those doors. I give them a light touch, and they open easily most of the time for me. I think people just need to read the instructions/pay more attention.

]]> By: Diane http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4875 Diane Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:06:19 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4875 I always thought that the low-floor buses were designed for better accessibility by the handicapped. After back surgery, I still ended up exiting through the front door because the driver rarely pulls the rear end close enough to the curb to make it easy to exit without stepping down. I wonder if someone in a wheelchair would have difficulty triggering the rear door without having to lean uncomfortably far forward, or if the chair, pulled close enough, would activate the signal. I always thought that the low-floor buses were designed for better accessibility by the handicapped. After back surgery, I still ended up exiting through the front door because the driver rarely pulls the rear end close enough to the curb to make it easy to exit without stepping down. I wonder if someone in a wheelchair would have difficulty triggering the rear door without having to lean uncomfortably far forward, or if the chair, pulled close enough, would activate the signal.

]]> By: Jay http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4874 Jay Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:58:09 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4874 I apologize about the link, just copy and paste it. I apologize about the link, just copy and paste it.

]]> By: Jay http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4873 Jay Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:56:59 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4873 - Trolleys/Nabi Diesels/Most Vintage Streetcars: Step down - Neoplan Diesels: Push the bar - Orion Hybrids: Place your arm in front and across the door. You don't have to touch anything, but place your arm close enough so the sensor can see you. If you start pushing the door and constantly moving your hand/arm back and forth, the sensor will not detect you properly. - Breda LRV: Check whether there is a green or red light on a column immediately to your left or right. Also, look above the doors to see whether they are out of service/order (because the drivers may forget to place a sticker on the doors' window). FYI, the difference between the Nabi (left) and Neoplan (right) diesels can be seen here: http://image44.webshots.com/45/2/7/5/388620705sXrRhn_ph.jpg - Trolleys/Nabi Diesels/Most Vintage Streetcars: Step down
- Neoplan Diesels: Push the bar
- Orion Hybrids: Place your arm in front and across the door. You don't have to touch anything, but place your arm close enough so the sensor can see you. If you start pushing the door and constantly moving your hand/arm back and forth, the sensor will not detect you properly.
- Breda LRV: Check whether there is a green or red light on a column immediately to your left or right. Also, look above the doors to see whether they are out of service/order (because the drivers may forget to place a sticker on the doors' window).

FYI, the difference between the Nabi (left) and Neoplan (right) diesels can be seen here: http://image44.webshots.com/45/2/7/5/388620705sXrRhn_ph.jpg

]]> By: LibertyHiller http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4872 LibertyHiller Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:45:15 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4872 No, redseca, a spreadsheet for iPhone is NOT necessary for the lines that aren't using the hybrids; all you have to do is pay attention. If it's a diesel bus, you step down and if it's a trolley coach, you push the bar. Muni should standardize on push bars for all bus doors and be done with it. It's simple, obvious, and provides user feedback. Of course, there's not much you can do about the drivers... No, redseca, a spreadsheet for iPhone is NOT necessary for the lines that aren't using the hybrids; all you have to do is pay attention. If it's a diesel bus, you step down and if it's a trolley coach, you push the bar.

Muni should standardize on push bars for all bus doors and be done with it. It's simple, obvious, and provides user feedback.

Of course, there's not much you can do about the drivers...

]]> By: C. http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4871 C. Wed, 22 Apr 2009 02:21:47 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4871 Several years ago, I spent lots of time in France, including public facilities (airports, train and bus stations, bathrooms, public buildings, etc.) that have automated door-opening systems or other automatically activated systems (e.g. water faucets). I was amazed at the timing and smoothness of the operation of these systems. I began to take informal note of them, and found them much smoother and better timed than American or English systems. I don't know whether the French have put more time and effort into human factors, ergonomic or user experience research on automated systems, or whether there just happens to be more attention to the "feel" of such systems due to cultural influences. But it might be worth checking out whether there are now automated door-opening systems or studies that might be applied to Muni... Thanks for all your good work!!! Several years ago, I spent lots of time in France, including public facilities (airports, train and bus stations, bathrooms, public buildings, etc.) that have automated door-opening systems or other automatically activated systems (e.g. water faucets).
I was amazed at the timing and smoothness of the operation of these systems. I began to take informal note of them, and found them much smoother and better timed than American or English systems.
I don't know whether the French have put more time and effort into human factors, ergonomic or user experience research on automated systems, or whether there just happens to be more attention to the "feel" of such systems due to cultural influences.
But it might be worth checking out whether there are now automated door-opening systems or studies that might be applied to Muni...
Thanks for all your good work!!!

]]> By: redseca2 http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4870 redseca2 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 01:49:16 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4870 I am not very sqeemish, but riding MUNI to work everyday, one of my goals is always to touch as FEW things as possible. So any system that make me touch the same spot everyone else touches is FAIL. I am not very sqeemish, but riding MUNI to work everyday, one of my goals is always to touch as FEW things as possible.

So any system that make me touch the same spot everyone else touches is FAIL.

]]> By: Jeffrey W. Baker http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4869 Jeffrey W. Baker Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:59:14 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4869 Jamison: Now that I have a TransLink card I'm even more confused. Do I need to tag out on Muni (answer: no, but how can you tell) and do I need to take a transfer (answer: no idea)? Jamison: Now that I have a TransLink card I'm even more confused. Do I need to tag out on Muni (answer: no, but how can you tell) and do I need to take a transfer (answer: no idea)?

]]> By: redseca2 http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/21/the-rear-door-problem-with-munis-new-hybrid-buses/comment-page-1/#comment-4867 redseca2 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:49:54 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1978#comment-4867 Another common problem is that bus lines that I ride every day include a complete collection demonstrating a comprehensive history of door opening technology. Each day MUNI sends me a random mix of touch bar buses, STEP DOWN! buses, the new CLASS sensor buses and doors that only open at the whim of the driver. I shiver in anticipation! What we need is a spreadsheet crosslisting bus numbers with exit door technology downloadable to Iphones! Another common problem is that bus lines that I ride every day include a complete collection demonstrating a comprehensive history of door opening technology.

Each day MUNI sends me a random mix of touch bar buses, STEP DOWN! buses, the new CLASS sensor buses and doors that only open at the whim of the driver. I shiver in anticipation!

What we need is a spreadsheet crosslisting bus numbers with exit door technology downloadable to Iphones!

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