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	<title>Comments on: Moralism vs. Utopianism&#8211;of Red Lights, Helmets, Bike Lanes and&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/</link>
	<description>Covering San Francisco&#039;s livable streets movement</description>
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		<title>By: Crispin Glover</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-480107</link>
		<dc:creator>Crispin Glover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 02:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-480107</guid>
		<description>Mike Dahmus, you&#039;re a douche.

There I said it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Dahmus, you&#8217;re a douche.</p>
<p>There I said it.</p>
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		<title>By: Liam Kavanagh-Bradette</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-180371</link>
		<dc:creator>Liam Kavanagh-Bradette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 07:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-180371</guid>
		<description>Not wearing a helmet while riding is akin to not wearing a seatbelt while driving. Yes it would be pleasant if the system was redesigned with cyclists at the forefront of the planning but it is still foolish in my opinion to ride any vehicle without some form of protection, and the belief that wearing a helmet does nothing to save you in the event of a collision with a motor vehicle  runs the false assumption that any serious collision will leave you dead and does not take into account the very real and serious possibility of a crippling brain injury which might have been prevented by wearing a helmet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not wearing a helmet while riding is akin to not wearing a seatbelt while driving. Yes it would be pleasant if the system was redesigned with cyclists at the forefront of the planning but it is still foolish in my opinion to ride any vehicle without some form of protection, and the belief that wearing a helmet does nothing to save you in the event of a collision with a motor vehicle  runs the false assumption that any serious collision will leave you dead and does not take into account the very real and serious possibility of a crippling brain injury which might have been prevented by wearing a helmet.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikael</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-5100</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-5100</guid>
		<description>What a brilliant read. Absolutely splendid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a brilliant read. Absolutely splendid.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Dorn</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-5090</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Dorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 03:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-5090</guid>
		<description>Great post Chris. The question really comes down to which side are you on. Challenge car dominance? Capitulate to car dominance? The &quot;effective cycling&quot; crowd capitulates, effectively. Fortunately, in San Francisco they&#039;ve been marginalized, and 15 years of challenging car culture have started to yield grudging improvements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Chris. The question really comes down to which side are you on. Challenge car dominance? Capitulate to car dominance? The &#8220;effective cycling&#8221; crowd capitulates, effectively. Fortunately, in San Francisco they&#8217;ve been marginalized, and 15 years of challenging car culture have started to yield grudging improvements.</p>
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		<title>By: whir</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-5016</link>
		<dc:creator>whir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-5016</guid>
		<description>Frankly, the idea that the only way biking becomes a viable mode of transit is if you &quot;preserve momentum&quot; by running stop signs is ludicrous.  I bike to work every day, and it&#039;s really not that difficult to stop at a stop sign and then start again.  It&#039;s more work, but getting exercise is part of the benefit of riding, right?  I mean, it&#039;s also a lot easier for cars not to stop when they take a right at a stop sign, but by and large they do.

I&#039;m in favor of the Idaho stop legislation, but I feel like the best way I as a cyclist can advocate for my chosen mode of transit is by displaying a little common courtesy (and as others have pointed out, predictability) in traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, the idea that the only way biking becomes a viable mode of transit is if you &#8220;preserve momentum&#8221; by running stop signs is ludicrous.  I bike to work every day, and it&#8217;s really not that difficult to stop at a stop sign and then start again.  It&#8217;s more work, but getting exercise is part of the benefit of riding, right?  I mean, it&#8217;s also a lot easier for cars not to stop when they take a right at a stop sign, but by and large they do.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m in favor of the Idaho stop legislation, but I feel like the best way I as a cyclist can advocate for my chosen mode of transit is by displaying a little common courtesy (and as others have pointed out, predictability) in traffic.</p>
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		<title>By: murphstahoe</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-5004</link>
		<dc:creator>murphstahoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-5004</guid>
		<description>While not defending anyone who takes a right on red without a stop or rolls a 4 way stop without checking for pedestrians...

I took it upon me to address this topic on my blog

http://holierthanyou.blogspot.com/2009/04/pedestrian-cyclist-collisions.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While not defending anyone who takes a right on red without a stop or rolls a 4 way stop without checking for pedestrians&#8230;</p>
<p>I took it upon me to address this topic on my blog</p>
<p><a href="http://holierthanyou.blogspot.com/2009/04/pedestrian-cyclist-collisions.html" rel="nofollow">http://holierthanyou.blogspot.com/2009/04/pedestrian-cyclist-collisions.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4990</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4990</guid>
		<description>In Europe, stop signs are much, much more rare than they are in the US. Roads generally have yields, often implicitly from the side road to the main road. The whole concept of a four-way stop is entirely alien there. So roads are in fact designed somewhat differently there. As for stopping at stop signs: when was the last time you saw a car come a complete stop for 3 seconds at a stop sign when nobody was around? I can&#039;t even remember. So let&#039;s stop arguing about law-abidingness, and start talking about what actually matters: safety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Europe, stop signs are much, much more rare than they are in the US. Roads generally have yields, often implicitly from the side road to the main road. The whole concept of a four-way stop is entirely alien there. So roads are in fact designed somewhat differently there. As for stopping at stop signs: when was the last time you saw a car come a complete stop for 3 seconds at a stop sign when nobody was around? I can&#8217;t even remember. So let&#8217;s stop arguing about law-abidingness, and start talking about what actually matters: safety.</p>
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		<title>By: the greasy bear</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4988</link>
		<dc:creator>the greasy bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4988</guid>
		<description>Preserving momentum on a bike is selfish only where currently illegal.

3-ton cars don&#039;t need to preserve their 100,000 watts of output in order for motoring to remain a viable transportation option. Motorists are able to physically survive a drive that includes lots of stops and starts (see freeways at rush hours). Cyclists--not so much. Cyclists put out 100 watts, and every dead stop requires us to red line it. Cyclists can only endure so much red-lining--exhaustion will and does suppress urban cycling.

So what do we as a community do? Few cyclists will ride if they must stop and start just like 100,000-watt cars can and do. Fewer cyclists and little further growth in cycling means more motorized transportation as a result. More pollution. More oil-wars. More obesity and higher health care expenditures for the state. Is it really selfish to change the law to make the physics of cycling and the law more congruent? Is it really selfish to make cycling easier and more attractive to as many interested persons as practicable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preserving momentum on a bike is selfish only where currently illegal.</p>
<p>3-ton cars don&#8217;t need to preserve their 100,000 watts of output in order for motoring to remain a viable transportation option. Motorists are able to physically survive a drive that includes lots of stops and starts (see freeways at rush hours). Cyclists&#8211;not so much. Cyclists put out 100 watts, and every dead stop requires us to red line it. Cyclists can only endure so much red-lining&#8211;exhaustion will and does suppress urban cycling.</p>
<p>So what do we as a community do? Few cyclists will ride if they must stop and start just like 100,000-watt cars can and do. Fewer cyclists and little further growth in cycling means more motorized transportation as a result. More pollution. More oil-wars. More obesity and higher health care expenditures for the state. Is it really selfish to change the law to make the physics of cycling and the law more congruent? Is it really selfish to make cycling easier and more attractive to as many interested persons as practicable?</p>
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		<title>By: the greasy bear</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4987</link>
		<dc:creator>the greasy bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4987</guid>
		<description>Stevem, I already explained why so many cyclists run stop signs, and it wasn&#039;t something amusing like civil disobdience. Hint: physics.  

Remaining in motion when practicable--efficient cycling--is only &quot;self-indulgent and counterproductive&quot; for cyclists who happen to live where traffic laws are 100% about the car, and where the needs of non-motorized transportation are willfully neglected by law. You know, places like San Francisco. 

In more progressive cycling communities than ours, like Idaho, rolling stops are legal, predictable, and efficient. Imagine that--the physics and the law are in congruence!

Hmm...maybe cyclists could get 10,000 people together in a bicycle coalition of some sort, and work for years and years to change traffic law and street design to better balance the needs of motorized and non-motorized traffic! That&#039;s what you support, right? Oh, wait--that kind of change is illegal here. And has been for 1,040 days. 

The streets are chaotic under the anti-cycling status-quo, and shall remain so until redesign and reform come to San Francisco.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stevem, I already explained why so many cyclists run stop signs, and it wasn&#8217;t something amusing like civil disobdience. Hint: physics.  </p>
<p>Remaining in motion when practicable&#8211;efficient cycling&#8211;is only &#8220;self-indulgent and counterproductive&#8221; for cyclists who happen to live where traffic laws are 100% about the car, and where the needs of non-motorized transportation are willfully neglected by law. You know, places like San Francisco. </p>
<p>In more progressive cycling communities than ours, like Idaho, rolling stops are legal, predictable, and efficient. Imagine that&#8211;the physics and the law are in congruence!</p>
<p>Hmm&#8230;maybe cyclists could get 10,000 people together in a bicycle coalition of some sort, and work for years and years to change traffic law and street design to better balance the needs of motorized and non-motorized traffic! That&#8217;s what you support, right? Oh, wait&#8211;that kind of change is illegal here. And has been for 1,040 days. </p>
<p>The streets are chaotic under the anti-cycling status-quo, and shall remain so until redesign and reform come to San Francisco.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Dahmus</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4986</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Dahmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4986</guid>
		<description>The idea that these cities weren&#039;t designed for bicycling is ludicrous - the core of San Francisco predates the automobile, and had plenty of stop signs back then, too. Likewise, there&#039;s plenty of stop signs and red lights in European cities we&#039;d all view as much more friendly to cyclists. (They have these same arguments in London, by the way). What would &#039;designed for cyclists&#039; look like, anyways? In my experience as a cyclist, it would mean more traffic lights and less stop signs (so right-of-way can always be obtained), but still plenty of stopping for cross traffic (otherwise, why should cross traffic stop for you?).

You&#039;ve spent an awful lot of energy rationalizing why your law-breaking is somehow good - but at its core, it&#039;s really about preserving your momentum (effort). That&#039;s not noble; it&#039;s selfish. Why can&#039;t a motorist use the same exact argument in Europe, where they spent a pretty penny for the fuel that accelerated them to speed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that these cities weren&#8217;t designed for bicycling is ludicrous &#8211; the core of San Francisco predates the automobile, and had plenty of stop signs back then, too. Likewise, there&#8217;s plenty of stop signs and red lights in European cities we&#8217;d all view as much more friendly to cyclists. (They have these same arguments in London, by the way). What would &#8216;designed for cyclists&#8217; look like, anyways? In my experience as a cyclist, it would mean more traffic lights and less stop signs (so right-of-way can always be obtained), but still plenty of stopping for cross traffic (otherwise, why should cross traffic stop for you?).</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve spent an awful lot of energy rationalizing why your law-breaking is somehow good &#8211; but at its core, it&#8217;s really about preserving your momentum (effort). That&#8217;s not noble; it&#8217;s selfish. Why can&#8217;t a motorist use the same exact argument in Europe, where they spent a pretty penny for the fuel that accelerated them to speed?</p>
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		<title>By: stevem</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4981</link>
		<dc:creator>stevem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4981</guid>
		<description>Greasy Bear,

Gains have been made by cyclists for a lot of reasons, but I don&#039;t believe for a moment that gains have been made by cyclists running red lights and stop signs. Trying to spin this behavior as some from of civil disobedience is amusing at best.

One of the biggest obstacles to fully achieving our shared dream of cycling being treated as a valid form of transportation worthy of equal standing with automobiles is the bad PR generated by those that think they are above the law. It&#039;s easy to dismiss the rights, needs and concerns of scofflaws.

In my opinion, your behavior as you describe it is self-indulgent and counterproductive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greasy Bear,</p>
<p>Gains have been made by cyclists for a lot of reasons, but I don&#8217;t believe for a moment that gains have been made by cyclists running red lights and stop signs. Trying to spin this behavior as some from of civil disobedience is amusing at best.</p>
<p>One of the biggest obstacles to fully achieving our shared dream of cycling being treated as a valid form of transportation worthy of equal standing with automobiles is the bad PR generated by those that think they are above the law. It&#8217;s easy to dismiss the rights, needs and concerns of scofflaws.</p>
<p>In my opinion, your behavior as you describe it is self-indulgent and counterproductive.</p>
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		<title>By: stevem</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4978</link>
		<dc:creator>stevem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4978</guid>
		<description>If you really want to become a fully participating member of the transportation mix, and achieve some of the dreams that you talk about in your post, you need to leave behind your &quot;outlaw&quot; persona.

Every time you run a stop sign or blow a red light or otherwise break the law, you are giving ammunition to those that say cyclists are scofflaws, dangerous and irresponsible, and hence unworthy of respect and that cycling is not a &quot;serious&quot; form of transportation. Quite simply your behavior is damaging to the cause of cycling as a viable form of transportation in the city.

We cyclists have many goals: to get more folks to want to ride: to move public policy in a more cycling friendly direction; and to enlist drivers and cops as friends/supporters rather than hostile adversaries; to gain the respect and &quot;place at the table&quot; that we deserve. None of these goals are served by &quot;outlaw&quot; cycling.

Your opinion that obeying the traffic laws somehow puts you at risk reeks of serious rationalization to me. I&#039;m not claiming perfect behavior, but I think that obeying traffic laws while cycling makes me a safer rider because my actions are predictable: I stop for stop signs, red lights etc. I signal when turning, take the lane when required for safety, stay out of the turn lane if I&#039;m not turning, and otherwise conform to the rules of the road. How could that possibly make me less safe?

If we want the rights granted to us by laws, we have the responsibility to obey those very same laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you really want to become a fully participating member of the transportation mix, and achieve some of the dreams that you talk about in your post, you need to leave behind your &#8220;outlaw&#8221; persona.</p>
<p>Every time you run a stop sign or blow a red light or otherwise break the law, you are giving ammunition to those that say cyclists are scofflaws, dangerous and irresponsible, and hence unworthy of respect and that cycling is not a &#8220;serious&#8221; form of transportation. Quite simply your behavior is damaging to the cause of cycling as a viable form of transportation in the city.</p>
<p>We cyclists have many goals: to get more folks to want to ride: to move public policy in a more cycling friendly direction; and to enlist drivers and cops as friends/supporters rather than hostile adversaries; to gain the respect and &#8220;place at the table&#8221; that we deserve. None of these goals are served by &#8220;outlaw&#8221; cycling.</p>
<p>Your opinion that obeying the traffic laws somehow puts you at risk reeks of serious rationalization to me. I&#8217;m not claiming perfect behavior, but I think that obeying traffic laws while cycling makes me a safer rider because my actions are predictable: I stop for stop signs, red lights etc. I signal when turning, take the lane when required for safety, stay out of the turn lane if I&#8217;m not turning, and otherwise conform to the rules of the road. How could that possibly make me less safe?</p>
<p>If we want the rights granted to us by laws, we have the responsibility to obey those very same laws.</p>
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		<title>By: SfResident</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4977</link>
		<dc:creator>SfResident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4977</guid>
		<description>Okay Greasy Bear. Between 2000 and 2006, the amount of time covered by the MTA&#039;s last major report on the topic, two pedestrians were killed in collisions with bicyclists in San Francisco. Most years there&#039;s between 15 and 20 reported ped-bike collisions that result in injuries. 

This is much lower than bike-car and (especially) ped-car, but there are a few factors that make bike-ped collisions significantly under-reported including the fact that most bike-ped injuries are minor and that the MTA systemically under-reports ped-x injuries. This is a fact that the MTA explicitly makes clear in their report. There&#039;s also an interesting article in the 2005 academic journal &quot;Accident analysis and prevention&quot; about the serious under-reporting of pedestrian injuries generally in SF. 

What these statistics tell me is that cars are far and away the most dangerous vehicles on the road but that serious injuries and sometimes death still results from bike-ped collisions. The &quot;minor&quot; injuries that result from most unreported bike-ped collisions are still an assault on the safety and security of pedestrians. Like I said, just because getting punched in the face isn&#039;t as bad as getting shot doesn&#039;t mean that we shouldn&#039;t care about folk getting punched in the face. 

My point is that bicyclists have the potential to injure and infuriate pedestrians when they ride recklessly and without regard for the laws. When you act like that you become a less deadly version of the &#039;crazy driver&#039; who thinks that their mode of transit gives them ownership of the road, all other users be damned. And when you&#039;re dealing with pedestrians the whole &quot;greener than thou so therefore I own the road&quot; argument holds no water. 

And yes, pedestrians regularly act like jackasses and we also present a danger to bicyclists when we do so. We need to all realize that the streets are a public commons and start acting like people who use other forms of transit are human beings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay Greasy Bear. Between 2000 and 2006, the amount of time covered by the MTA&#8217;s last major report on the topic, two pedestrians were killed in collisions with bicyclists in San Francisco. Most years there&#8217;s between 15 and 20 reported ped-bike collisions that result in injuries. </p>
<p>This is much lower than bike-car and (especially) ped-car, but there are a few factors that make bike-ped collisions significantly under-reported including the fact that most bike-ped injuries are minor and that the MTA systemically under-reports ped-x injuries. This is a fact that the MTA explicitly makes clear in their report. There&#8217;s also an interesting article in the 2005 academic journal &#8220;Accident analysis and prevention&#8221; about the serious under-reporting of pedestrian injuries generally in SF. </p>
<p>What these statistics tell me is that cars are far and away the most dangerous vehicles on the road but that serious injuries and sometimes death still results from bike-ped collisions. The &#8220;minor&#8221; injuries that result from most unreported bike-ped collisions are still an assault on the safety and security of pedestrians. Like I said, just because getting punched in the face isn&#8217;t as bad as getting shot doesn&#8217;t mean that we shouldn&#8217;t care about folk getting punched in the face. </p>
<p>My point is that bicyclists have the potential to injure and infuriate pedestrians when they ride recklessly and without regard for the laws. When you act like that you become a less deadly version of the &#8216;crazy driver&#8217; who thinks that their mode of transit gives them ownership of the road, all other users be damned. And when you&#8217;re dealing with pedestrians the whole &#8220;greener than thou so therefore I own the road&#8221; argument holds no water. </p>
<p>And yes, pedestrians regularly act like jackasses and we also present a danger to bicyclists when we do so. We need to all realize that the streets are a public commons and start acting like people who use other forms of transit are human beings.</p>
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		<title>By: the greasy bear</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4971</link>
		<dc:creator>the greasy bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4971</guid>
		<description>Again, though, how do we justify the declaration that cyclists are &quot;dangerous&quot; to pedestrians if none of us has any actual facts to back up such an assertion? 

It&#039;s not an inconsequential question, nor is it unfair to ask of those making such an assertion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, though, how do we justify the declaration that cyclists are &#8220;dangerous&#8221; to pedestrians if none of us has any actual facts to back up such an assertion? </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not an inconsequential question, nor is it unfair to ask of those making such an assertion.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4968</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4968</guid>
		<description>@SFResident, I completely agree, and your comments are very well put.

I fully and actively support the bicycle as a transportation mode over the car.  But I am confounded by bicyclists (the bad apples if you will, though a lot of them there are) who don&#039;t show any respect to pedestrians.  To be honest, it tempers my advocacy for bicycling.

Without questioning anybody&#039;s personal motives in any particular situation, I always wonder why somebody who deals with dangerous bullying from cars would turn around and exact the same sort of behavior on road users more vulnerable than they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@SFResident, I completely agree, and your comments are very well put.</p>
<p>I fully and actively support the bicycle as a transportation mode over the car.  But I am confounded by bicyclists (the bad apples if you will, though a lot of them there are) who don&#8217;t show any respect to pedestrians.  To be honest, it tempers my advocacy for bicycling.</p>
<p>Without questioning anybody&#8217;s personal motives in any particular situation, I always wonder why somebody who deals with dangerous bullying from cars would turn around and exact the same sort of behavior on road users more vulnerable than they are.</p>
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		<title>By: the greasy bear</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4966</link>
		<dc:creator>the greasy bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4966</guid>
		<description>SfResident, you assert SF cyclists are dangerous to pedestrians--how many pedestrians were injured or killed last year by cyclists in SF?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SfResident, you assert SF cyclists are dangerous to pedestrians&#8211;how many pedestrians were injured or killed last year by cyclists in SF?</p>
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		<title>By: SfResident</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4960</link>
		<dc:creator>SfResident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4960</guid>
		<description>In response to:

&quot;We should decide which is the worst offense based on which is a greater threat it is to innocent lives....&quot;

and

&quot;I am neither as powerful nor as dangerous as a motorist behind the wheel.&quot;

While I agree with the general sentiment here, that the fundamental problem is that our streets are designed for cars über-alles, I think its important to remember that from a pedestrian&#039;s perspective cars may be murderous but bicycles are still dangerous. 

All too often I think bicyclists lose sight of the very real threat that they pose to pedestrians. Perhaps I&#039;m repeating myself but I just came back to my house angry because in the time between my fist post and now I had to literally jump away from a cyclist who was making a no-stop right turn off Valencia.

Sure getting knocked to the ground by a bicyclist isn&#039;t near as bad as getting run over by a car, just like getting punched in the face by a mugger isn&#039;t as bad as getting shot in the head. But neither are things that pedestrians should have to face. And it&#039;s certainly not an argument for allowing bicyclists to push into the right of way of pedestrians (or cars, for that matter). No bicyclist thinks that they&#039;re causing problems for pedestrians but a large part of that is because, in our vehicle-centered city, most people forget we exist.

Let&#039;s work together to make the streets safer for all of us. And please, please, please notice pedestrians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to:</p>
<p>&#8220;We should decide which is the worst offense based on which is a greater threat it is to innocent lives&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>&#8220;I am neither as powerful nor as dangerous as a motorist behind the wheel.&#8221;</p>
<p>While I agree with the general sentiment here, that the fundamental problem is that our streets are designed for cars über-alles, I think its important to remember that from a pedestrian&#8217;s perspective cars may be murderous but bicycles are still dangerous. </p>
<p>All too often I think bicyclists lose sight of the very real threat that they pose to pedestrians. Perhaps I&#8217;m repeating myself but I just came back to my house angry because in the time between my fist post and now I had to literally jump away from a cyclist who was making a no-stop right turn off Valencia.</p>
<p>Sure getting knocked to the ground by a bicyclist isn&#8217;t near as bad as getting run over by a car, just like getting punched in the face by a mugger isn&#8217;t as bad as getting shot in the head. But neither are things that pedestrians should have to face. And it&#8217;s certainly not an argument for allowing bicyclists to push into the right of way of pedestrians (or cars, for that matter). No bicyclist thinks that they&#8217;re causing problems for pedestrians but a large part of that is because, in our vehicle-centered city, most people forget we exist.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s work together to make the streets safer for all of us. And please, please, please notice pedestrians.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Snyder</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4957</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4957</guid>
		<description>Many have rightfully criticized Mike Dahmus&#039;s logical fallacies (same rights, same responsibilities?!), but nobody has yet contradicted his assertion that by obeying the law rigorously cyclists will gain more respect from motorists. That&#039;s wishful thinking and is not borne out by my experience, which is that motorists in San Francisco have over the past two decades of my riding learned to give cyclists much much more respect. I used to get yelled at all the time (for perfectly legal and safe behavior, by the way); now it&#039;s very rare.

No marginalized group has ever gained its victory by avoiding confrontation with their opponents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many have rightfully criticized Mike Dahmus&#8217;s logical fallacies (same rights, same responsibilities?!), but nobody has yet contradicted his assertion that by obeying the law rigorously cyclists will gain more respect from motorists. That&#8217;s wishful thinking and is not borne out by my experience, which is that motorists in San Francisco have over the past two decades of my riding learned to give cyclists much much more respect. I used to get yelled at all the time (for perfectly legal and safe behavior, by the way); now it&#8217;s very rare.</p>
<p>No marginalized group has ever gained its victory by avoiding confrontation with their opponents.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Siegel</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4955</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4955</guid>
		<description>&quot;I consider running the middle of a red light cycle to be about the worst offense you can make, ...  and minor speeding just a blip.&quot;

We should decide which is the worst offense based on which is  a greater threat it is to innocent lives.  Speeding by cars, even &quot;minor speeding&quot; is a direct threat to life.  

I treat stop signs as yields while bicycling.  I do not think bikes should run red lights and do not do so myself.  However, a bike running a red light is clearly less of a threat to life than a car speeding. 

I think the author&#039;s attitude is not constructive.  It is self-destructive to refuse to wear a helmet, and it is self-righteously self-destructive to say &quot;It’s not a moral imperative to buy a commodity that offers meager protection in order to be critical of a ridiculously hostile road structure.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I consider running the middle of a red light cycle to be about the worst offense you can make, &#8230;  and minor speeding just a blip.&#8221;</p>
<p>We should decide which is the worst offense based on which is  a greater threat it is to innocent lives.  Speeding by cars, even &#8220;minor speeding&#8221; is a direct threat to life.  </p>
<p>I treat stop signs as yields while bicycling.  I do not think bikes should run red lights and do not do so myself.  However, a bike running a red light is clearly less of a threat to life than a car speeding. </p>
<p>I think the author&#8217;s attitude is not constructive.  It is self-destructive to refuse to wear a helmet, and it is self-righteously self-destructive to say &#8220;It’s not a moral imperative to buy a commodity that offers meager protection in order to be critical of a ridiculously hostile road structure.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: the greasy bear</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/04/23/moralism-vs-utopianism-of-red-lights-helmets-bike-lanes-and/comment-page-1/#comment-4951</link>
		<dc:creator>the greasy bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=1997#comment-4951</guid>
		<description>Like most SF cyclists, I run stop signs and red lights when practicable. The physics of cycling incentivize that kind of negotiation through an antagonistic traffic management system designed only to facilitate motoring. 

Any argument that begins with the premise that bikes should operate exactly as cars is irrational. Cars put out 1,000 times more energy than cyclists, weigh exponentially more, kill tens of thousands more people, and so on. I am neither as powerful nor as dangerous as a motorist behind the wheel. Legitimate rules of the road will concede these realities when balancing the needs of motorized and non-motorized transportation on our shared streets.

Early in the 20th century, San Francisco voluntarily retrofitted its decades-old roads and laws to accommodate the private motorist. Today&#039;s cyclist-citizens deserve the same accommodation from our shared government. Yet peaceful change to that end has been illegal in SF for 1,039 days and counting.

Cyclists in more progressive and better-adjusted cities like Portland are by all accounts more lawful and courteous than here, because their needs are being met legally. As long as the law continues to work against SF cyclists, SF cyclists will continue to work against the law. Motorists can smugly enjoy the entire road and wag their fingers at cyclists shunted to the sidelines, but the unruliness on the streets here won&#039;t change until we eliminate the root of the problem--the brittle, irrational, and environmentally damaging autocentrism that dominates SF traffic management and street design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like most SF cyclists, I run stop signs and red lights when practicable. The physics of cycling incentivize that kind of negotiation through an antagonistic traffic management system designed only to facilitate motoring. </p>
<p>Any argument that begins with the premise that bikes should operate exactly as cars is irrational. Cars put out 1,000 times more energy than cyclists, weigh exponentially more, kill tens of thousands more people, and so on. I am neither as powerful nor as dangerous as a motorist behind the wheel. Legitimate rules of the road will concede these realities when balancing the needs of motorized and non-motorized transportation on our shared streets.</p>
<p>Early in the 20th century, San Francisco voluntarily retrofitted its decades-old roads and laws to accommodate the private motorist. Today&#8217;s cyclist-citizens deserve the same accommodation from our shared government. Yet peaceful change to that end has been illegal in SF for 1,039 days and counting.</p>
<p>Cyclists in more progressive and better-adjusted cities like Portland are by all accounts more lawful and courteous than here, because their needs are being met legally. As long as the law continues to work against SF cyclists, SF cyclists will continue to work against the law. Motorists can smugly enjoy the entire road and wag their fingers at cyclists shunted to the sidelines, but the unruliness on the streets here won&#8217;t change until we eliminate the root of the problem&#8211;the brittle, irrational, and environmentally damaging autocentrism that dominates SF traffic management and street design.</p>
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