Comments on: Streetcars in Seattle, Or Why America Should Mind Its Transit Gaps http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/10/streetcars-in-seattle-or-why-america-should-mind-its-transit-gaps/ Covering San Francisco's livable streets movement Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:39:06 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Greg http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/10/streetcars-in-seattle-or-why-america-should-mind-its-transit-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-12121 Greg Wed, 08 Jul 2009 04:13:52 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2376#comment-12121 Seattle voted on the monorail 5x until real estate developers who started to see their adversaries' properties go up in value (despite the goofiness of monorails) finally got the vote they wanted. Ah, greed. Seattle has always had developers who've shot down transit since 1995 and has the benefit of politicians who are physically opposed to anything on rails. They destroyed the real Sound Transit in 1995 and left us with the half-assed thing we have now, limping along, billions spent and few miles traveled. Trust me, I was there, I lived through the transit battles of the 90s up there and it was a motivation to leave. Seattle traffic is almost as bad as LA without the benefit of a car culture - instead it's a provincial mentality that keeps it in the dark ages, now paying a lot more since they rejected federal funds in the 70s. Flame on, Seattle, flame on. Seattle voted on the monorail 5x until real estate developers who started to see their adversaries' properties go up in value (despite the goofiness of monorails) finally got the vote they wanted.

Ah, greed. Seattle has always had developers who've shot down transit since 1995 and has the benefit of politicians who are physically opposed to anything on rails. They destroyed the real Sound Transit in 1995 and left us with the half-assed thing we have now, limping along, billions spent and few miles traveled. Trust me, I was there, I lived through the transit battles of the 90s up there and it was a motivation to leave. Seattle traffic is almost as bad as LA without the benefit of a car culture - instead it's a provincial mentality that keeps it in the dark ages, now paying a lot more since they rejected federal funds in the 70s.

Flame on, Seattle, flame on.

]]> By: R.Sugg http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/10/streetcars-in-seattle-or-why-america-should-mind-its-transit-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-8201 R.Sugg Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:03:21 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2376#comment-8201 ____The Seattle monorail extension was voted DOWN the last time it was put to a vote (Nov. 2005). I like monorails as a technology but the money issues (costs [2G$+], interest [9G$], potential budget overruns) for the extension were horrendous. I've lived in Seattle and like the city a lot. Also, keep in mind that the monorail boosters were hyping the benefits and the hype didn't pass the sniff test. P.S. G$ = billion dollars U.S. http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20051109&slug=monorail09m ____The Seattle monorail extension was voted DOWN the last time it was put to a vote (Nov. 2005). I like monorails as a technology but the money issues (costs [2G$+], interest [9G$], potential budget overruns) for the extension were horrendous. I've lived in Seattle and like the city a lot. Also, keep in mind that the monorail boosters were hyping the benefits and the hype didn't pass the sniff test.

P.S. G$ = billion dollars U.S.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20051109&slug=monorail09m

]]> By: Todd Edelman http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/10/streetcars-in-seattle-or-why-america-should-mind-its-transit-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-6198 Todd Edelman Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:30:29 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2376#comment-6198 I have had two track-related falls. The last on Harrison St. in around 1989 the day before a section - freight rail of course, not for the street cars - around 17th St. was removed. I lived in the center of Prague for seven years. Lots of streetcar (tram) tracks there, but I never fell. Skill and luck. Definitely not for everyone (I don't push for "vehicular cycling"). I do think that there are design differences between what they use there and in the USA... can anyone confirm? It seems that one of main reasons cyclists have a problem with tram tracks, which are, after all, predictable, is moving cars, which are not. Also, parked cars tend push cyclists towards tracks on shared roadways. With a small gap between parked cars and tracks, avoiding opening car doors can mean riding too close to or even inside the tracks. In many of the relatively tight, high-density spaces of old cities (and hopefully new ones, too) there can be plenty of space for bikes, out of the way of trams... if car parking on the sides of the mobility parts of streets are eliminated. Ah ha! Trams are wonderful, and speed is not everything. In many cities of Europe, elders dislike going underground to ride the metro. I live in western Berlin now and really miss trams. Don't blame trams when it is the cars causing the problems. I have had two track-related falls. The last on Harrison St. in around 1989 the day before a section - freight rail of course, not for the street cars - around 17th St. was removed.

I lived in the center of Prague for seven years. Lots of streetcar (tram) tracks there, but I never fell. Skill and luck. Definitely not for everyone (I don't push for "vehicular cycling"). I do think that there are design differences between what they use there and in the USA... can anyone confirm?

It seems that one of main reasons cyclists have a problem with tram tracks, which are, after all, predictable, is moving cars, which are not. Also, parked cars tend push cyclists towards tracks on shared roadways. With a small gap between parked cars and tracks, avoiding opening car doors can mean riding too close to or even inside the tracks.

In many of the relatively tight, high-density spaces of old cities (and hopefully new ones, too) there can be plenty of space for bikes, out of the way of trams... if car parking on the sides of the mobility parts of streets are eliminated. Ah ha!

Trams are wonderful, and speed is not everything. In many cities of Europe, elders dislike going underground to ride the metro. I live in western Berlin now and really miss trams. Don't blame trams when it is the cars causing the problems.

]]> By: David Baker http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/10/streetcars-in-seattle-or-why-america-should-mind-its-transit-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-6160 David Baker Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:28:03 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2376#comment-6160 Surface in street rail is very dangerous for cyclists. There is no simple solution, but the best practice is to separate rail from streets. Copenhagen is an example of a city with fantastic transportation, but no mixed traffic rail systems. The Danes just built a new light rail system that runs either above or under ground for it's entire length. An additional advantage to that, besides safety for cyclists, is that it allows the trains to be automated, with no drivers. Personally I think it's a mistake to put new streetcar systems into urban areas, both because of speed, they tend to very slow, and safety issues. Surface in street rail is very dangerous for cyclists. There is no simple solution, but the best practice is to separate rail from streets. Copenhagen is an example of a city with fantastic transportation, but no mixed traffic rail systems. The Danes just built a new light rail system that runs either above or under ground for it's entire length. An additional advantage to that, besides safety for cyclists, is that it allows the trains to be automated, with no drivers. Personally I think it's a mistake to put new streetcar systems into urban areas, both because of speed, they tend to very slow, and safety issues.

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