Comments on: Making 18th Street More Bike, Pedestrian and Commerce Friendly http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/ Covering San Francisco's livable streets movement Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:56:19 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Lucifer T Chesar RN retired http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-8211 Lucifer T Chesar RN retired Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:17:18 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-8211 I've lived in the same apartment on 18th near Dolores since 1989 and have seen it change from a block dangerous enough that people would avoid driving thru to one where they're out there fighting for parking! Parking's been horrible for quite a few years and the sidewalk's impassable a lot especially on weekends. For those of us that live on this block, our day to day functioning is hugely inconvenienced by the growing throngs that invade Dolores Park and the local eateries and shops these days. The businesses seem to try to be aware of our needs but many in the crowds behave quite rudely refusing to budge an inch from the ice cream line to let locals pass with laundry, groceries, or whatever. Weekends find the street congested with motor vehicle traffic when the 7am-9am tow away lane and the 4pm to 6pm tow away commuter lane have all day parking. Rush hour will unfortunately find similar congestion every weekday without these lanes so I hope we keep them but I agree something MUST be done! Dolores Park was a graveyard in the 1800s until they moved the bodies out. Not as pleasant sunbathing out there knowing that historical tidbit....especially when there are rows of bodies sunbathing on the tiered levels! I've lived in the same apartment on 18th near Dolores since 1989 and have seen it change from a block dangerous enough that people would avoid driving thru to one where they're out there fighting for parking! Parking's been horrible for quite a few years and the sidewalk's impassable a lot especially on weekends. For those of us that live on this block, our day to day functioning is hugely inconvenienced by the growing throngs that invade Dolores Park and the local eateries and shops these days. The businesses seem to try to be aware of our needs but many in the crowds behave quite rudely refusing to budge an inch from the ice cream line to let locals pass with laundry, groceries, or whatever. Weekends find the street congested with motor vehicle traffic when the 7am-9am tow away lane and the 4pm to 6pm tow away commuter lane have all day parking. Rush hour will unfortunately find similar congestion every weekday without these lanes so I hope we keep them but I agree something MUST be done! Dolores Park was a graveyard in the 1800s until they moved the bodies out. Not as pleasant sunbathing out there knowing that historical tidbit....especially when there are rows of bodies sunbathing on the tiered levels!

]]> By: murphstahoe http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-8191 murphstahoe Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:31:22 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-8191 @taomom I would actually rather have bike lanes striped on 18th street than 17th street because 18th street is both flatter and a happier street to ride down. Not to mention the tracks on 17th. The bikes use 18th because it's better. Of course I don't think it's possible to stripe a lane West of Dolores where 18th becomes narrow. @taomom I would actually rather have bike lanes striped on 18th street than 17th street because 18th street is both flatter and a happier street to ride down.

Not to mention the tracks on 17th. The bikes use 18th because it's better. Of course I don't think it's possible to stripe a lane West of Dolores where 18th becomes narrow.

]]> By: taomom http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-8151 taomom Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:43:17 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-8151 Glad to see an article about 18th street! I ride 18th street between Castro and Mission nearly every day, and I agree with John Murphy that I like the tow away lane. In the evening, anyway, there is almost always a car or two parked in the westbound tow lane, rendering the lane rather unusable to cars and giving bikes their own lane for large stretches. I would actually rather have bike lanes striped on 18th street than 17th street because 18th street is both flatter and a happier street to ride down. All the shops, cafes, restaurants, and people and bicyclists out and about make the street very friendly. My answer is to get rid of parking to make 18th street more ped/bike friendly, but it's true I don't live there (so less parking wouldn't be any skin off my nose) and I never even consider driving there because it's so congested. (Why does anyone drive down 18th? You can't go more than five miles an hour by car and only three cars seem to make it east across Valencia with each light. Seems to me 17th has got to be faster. I feel sorry for the cars as I squeeze my way past the stationary traffic.) There definitely needs to be more and better bike parking in the area. I once saw a car pretty much crunch a bike parked at the rack in front of the Bi-Rite. (The driver was extremely incompetent at parallel parking. Totally ruined the bike's front tire. Bummer to come out of the store and not have a ride home.) Glad to see an article about 18th street! I ride 18th street between Castro and Mission nearly every day, and I agree with John Murphy that I like the tow away lane. In the evening, anyway, there is almost always a car or two parked in the westbound tow lane, rendering the lane rather unusable to cars and giving bikes their own lane for large stretches. I would actually rather have bike lanes striped on 18th street than 17th street because 18th street is both flatter and a happier street to ride down. All the shops, cafes, restaurants, and people and bicyclists out and about make the street very friendly.

My answer is to get rid of parking to make 18th street more ped/bike friendly, but it's true I don't live there (so less parking wouldn't be any skin off my nose) and I never even consider driving there because it's so congested. (Why does anyone drive down 18th? You can't go more than five miles an hour by car and only three cars seem to make it east across Valencia with each light. Seems to me 17th has got to be faster. I feel sorry for the cars as I squeeze my way past the stationary traffic.)

There definitely needs to be more and better bike parking in the area. I once saw a car pretty much crunch a bike parked at the rack in front of the Bi-Rite. (The driver was extremely incompetent at parallel parking. Totally ruined the bike's front tire. Bummer to come out of the store and not have a ride home.)

]]> By: marcos http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7941 marcos Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:37:11 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7941 @John Murphy, I'd bet that there was some quid pro quo on Cesar Chavez improvements and neighborhood approach to luxury condo development in that area. And, yeah, until better off white folks got involved in CC puede, the CIty could have cared less. There are tremendous unmet needs in poor communities and communities of color that white folks just expect for their entitlements to be granted as a matter of course. If you think that Bernal Dwellings is dangerous now, you should have seen its previous incarnation. But with a little more post-3400 Cesar Chavez, "Eastern Neighborhoods" gentrification in the Mission, not to worry, bicycling will be safe! -marc @John Murphy, I'd bet that there was some quid pro quo on Cesar Chavez improvements and neighborhood approach to luxury condo development in that area.

And, yeah, until better off white folks got involved in CC puede, the CIty could have cared less.

There are tremendous unmet needs in poor communities and communities of color that white folks just expect for their entitlements to be granted as a matter of course.

If you think that Bernal Dwellings is dangerous now, you should have seen its previous incarnation. But with a little more post-3400 Cesar Chavez, "Eastern Neighborhoods" gentrification in the Mission, not to worry, bicycling will be safe!

-marc

]]> By: John Murphy http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7921 John Murphy Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:28:54 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7921 yeah, screw the white people. Let's install spikes in the sidewalk. The Cesar Chavez corridor/area isn't exactly what I would call "gentrified", if it's after dark I won't ride down 26th St. Yet the city is planning to drop major coin to redesign that street. The losers in that deal will be the car commuters from Noe Valley and the Castro. Does that project pass muster with you since it's not for the Trendy Google Professionals? yeah, screw the white people. Let's install spikes in the sidewalk.

The Cesar Chavez corridor/area isn't exactly what I would call "gentrified", if it's after dark I won't ride down 26th St. Yet the city is planning to drop major coin to redesign that street. The losers in that deal will be the car commuters from Noe Valley and the Castro. Does that project pass muster with you since it's not for the Trendy Google Professionals?

]]> By: marcos http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7911 marcos Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:19:52 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7911 Once the better off white people ooze into the Mission, it is time for the City to drop major coin in order to "beautify" the space in front of a $50 pizzaria owned by someone who has been front and center opposed to the Healthy San Francisco legislation. Perhaps if the chi-chi restaurants did not privatize public sidewalk space to ply their overpriced trendy food, we might have more space for the ambling public. Combine this with the paean to gentrification that the Valencia street redux implies and we've got the City doing the work of the Dufty for Mayor 2011 campaign throughout the west Mission. -marc Once the better off white people ooze into the Mission, it is time for the City to drop major coin in order to "beautify" the space in front of a $50 pizzaria owned by someone who has been front and center opposed to the Healthy San Francisco legislation.

Perhaps if the chi-chi restaurants did not privatize public sidewalk space to ply their overpriced trendy food, we might have more space for the ambling public.

Combine this with the paean to gentrification that the Valencia street redux implies and we've got the City doing the work of the Dufty for Mayor 2011 campaign throughout the west Mission.

-marc

]]> By: dan http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7901 dan Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:17:16 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7901 the accidents at 18th and Guerrero may in part be caused by the traffic lights on Guerrero. they are synchronized so that if you go the speed limit, you get stuck at almost every light. it encourages speeding. also, eliminating some left turns on Guerrero would be really helpful for traffic calming. the lights, left turners, and double parkers coupled together whip the traffic into a frenzy which caries over to 18th St. the accidents at 18th and Guerrero may in part be caused by the traffic lights on Guerrero. they are synchronized so that if you go the speed limit, you get stuck at almost every light. it encourages speeding. also, eliminating some left turns on Guerrero would be really helpful for traffic calming. the lights, left turners, and double parkers coupled together whip the traffic into a frenzy which caries over to 18th St.

]]> By: John Murphy http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7871 John Murphy Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:52:24 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7871 I ride 18th from the Castro to Valencia every morning. I actually prefer the tow-away zone. In practice there is rarely enough traffic on that stretch to fill two lanes, the only spot I typically see cars in the right hand lane is when they are preparing to turn right on Guerrero or Valencia, or to go around a left turner onto Guerrero. Far more cars turn left onto Guerrero, Valencia, or Mission or keep going straight, perhaps eventually headed to 101 or something. The net result is that cyclists headed East on 18th at that time of day typically enjoy the benefit of using the whole lane unfettered by traffic, the primary concern being watching out for cars quickly changing to the right hand lane to go around a left turning car. Allowing parking in that segment will force cyclists to mix with cars in a single lane, the situation I must face when I leave home after 9 AM (well, actually after 8:45 AM, the cars start gambling with the DPT around 8:50 AM). In practice the 9 AM timeframe isn't that bad because traffic decreases, but forcing the cyclists into the primary travel lane during higher traffic would be bad. The probable result would be that cyclists would filter down the left couple of feet of the former tow-away lane - inserting all those cyclists into a very nasty doorzone. The best solution would of course be to expand the sidewalk into half of the outside lane the entire stretch from Dolores to Valencia, and use the other half of that lane as a protected bike lane, demarcated by lovely planter boxes. I ride 18th from the Castro to Valencia every morning. I actually prefer the tow-away zone. In practice there is rarely enough traffic on that stretch to fill two lanes, the only spot I typically see cars in the right hand lane is when they are preparing to turn right on Guerrero or Valencia, or to go around a left turner onto Guerrero. Far more cars turn left onto Guerrero, Valencia, or Mission or keep going straight, perhaps eventually headed to 101 or something.

The net result is that cyclists headed East on 18th at that time of day typically enjoy the benefit of using the whole lane unfettered by traffic, the primary concern being watching out for cars quickly changing to the right hand lane to go around a left turning car.

Allowing parking in that segment will force cyclists to mix with cars in a single lane, the situation I must face when I leave home after 9 AM (well, actually after 8:45 AM, the cars start gambling with the DPT around 8:50 AM). In practice the 9 AM timeframe isn't that bad because traffic decreases, but forcing the cyclists into the primary travel lane during higher traffic would be bad. The probable result would be that cyclists would filter down the left couple of feet of the former tow-away lane - inserting all those cyclists into a very nasty doorzone.

The best solution would of course be to expand the sidewalk into half of the outside lane the entire stretch from Dolores to Valencia, and use the other half of that lane as a protected bike lane, demarcated by lovely planter boxes.

]]> By: Evan http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7861 Evan Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:51:56 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7861 Ha, my car was dinged by a bus while I was waiting for the red light at 18th and Guerrero, because he was trying to make a turn onto cramped 18th Street in front of Tartine. That street needs some serious work. I'd rather see cars banned altogether. Regardless, there should not be parking on both sides of the street and two lanes of through traffic. Ha, my car was dinged by a bus while I was waiting for the red light at 18th and Guerrero, because he was trying to make a turn onto cramped 18th Street in front of Tartine.

That street needs some serious work. I'd rather see cars banned altogether. Regardless, there should not be parking on both sides of the street and two lanes of through traffic.

]]> By: Justin http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7811 Justin Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:08:45 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7811 Stroll: “When I mention it to people, and I talk about it, some people’s first reaction is like, 'oh great, now there won’t be any parking.' And some people are really jazzed about it. I myself, I’m excited about it. I hate to inconvenience [anyone], obviously, that’s not what I want to do, but on the same token, I think it’s a great experiment and fun for the city as a whole, for this neighborhood.” I'm not castigating Stroll here, I think it's a problem of how poor and restricting the discourse is, and Stroll is merely subconsciously drawing on it when he implies that converting a few parking spaces to pedestrian/bike uses on this block would be "inconveniencing people." The whole point is the incredible inconvenience to the vast majority of the street's users because so much of the street is given over to the smallest group of users, vehicle drivers and their parking. The people who choose to drive to Delfina rather than walk, take the 33, bike, bart, etc. are already inconveniencing themselves. It is really not up to us to find and provide them parking and chew our fingernails nervously when we think about opening up a few parking spaces to more appropriate uses. Stroll: “When I mention it to people, and I talk about it, some people’s first reaction is like, 'oh great, now there won’t be any parking.' And some people are really jazzed about it. I myself, I’m excited about it. I hate to inconvenience [anyone], obviously, that’s not what I want to do, but on the same token, I think it’s a great experiment and fun for the city as a whole, for this neighborhood.”

I'm not castigating Stroll here, I think it's a problem of how poor and restricting the discourse is, and Stroll is merely subconsciously drawing on it when he implies that converting a few parking spaces to pedestrian/bike uses on this block would be "inconveniencing people." The whole point is the incredible inconvenience to the vast majority of the street's users because so much of the street is given over to the smallest group of users, vehicle drivers and their parking. The people who choose to drive to Delfina rather than walk, take the 33, bike, bart, etc. are already inconveniencing themselves. It is really not up to us to find and provide them parking and chew our fingernails nervously when we think about opening up a few parking spaces to more appropriate uses.

]]> By: Greg Rodgers http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/06/24/making-18th-street-more-bike-pedestrian-and-commerce-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-7801 Greg Rodgers Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:04:33 +0000 http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=2481#comment-7801 Solution: Pedestrian promenade on 18th between Dolores and Valencia, with a narrow, meandering bike path in the planted center median. Solution: Pedestrian promenade on 18th between Dolores and Valencia, with a narrow, meandering bike path in the planted center median.

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