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	<title>Comments on: Portland&#8217;s Greenstreets Program a Sterling Best Practice Model</title>
	<atom:link href="http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/</link>
	<description>Covering San Francisco&#039;s livable streets movement</description>
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		<title>By: dave buffalo</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-102031</link>
		<dc:creator>dave buffalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-102031</guid>
		<description>yes - this can work in the snow/ice states/cities. It is just a matter of selecting plants and amending soils to mitigate the osmotic affects of salt. Although we have not evolved yet in to using these bio retention types of landscapes along our streets - only in parking lots so far - we still do major landscape designs and construction along streets and in pakring lots. Same thing. Salt, heavy snow, ice, rain, and more.......over and over all winter.... It works if planned and constructed properly. 


Dave - Buffalo, NY</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes &#8211; this can work in the snow/ice states/cities. It is just a matter of selecting plants and amending soils to mitigate the osmotic affects of salt. Although we have not evolved yet in to using these bio retention types of landscapes along our streets &#8211; only in parking lots so far &#8211; we still do major landscape designs and construction along streets and in pakring lots. Same thing. Salt, heavy snow, ice, rain, and more&#8230;&#8230;.over and over all winter&#8230;. It works if planned and constructed properly. </p>
<p>Dave &#8211; Buffalo, NY</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Garcia</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-57641</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Garcia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-57641</guid>
		<description>@mike Thanks for the links about the City&#039;s projects!  It really helps to see things actually being done.  Hopefully they&#039;ll increase the momentum for this sort of thing in normal street repair and construction (versus reserving it for special revitilization projects)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@mike Thanks for the links about the City&#8217;s projects!  It really helps to see things actually being done.  Hopefully they&#8217;ll increase the momentum for this sort of thing in normal street repair and construction (versus reserving it for special revitilization projects)</p>
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		<title>By: bridgit vb</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-57551</link>
		<dc:creator>bridgit vb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-57551</guid>
		<description>To JJM 63:

If a good infiltration base is laid with adequate gap space then these will certainly function better than the alternative. Another benefit is that the presence and proper use of these features can reduce the need for salt by creating a gradient for the melting water to flow into the planters. 

If a city were to combine this with porous paving for pathways and streets [also have been tested for icy conditions in Wisconsin -see: The Wisconsin Asphalt Pavement Association (www.wispave.org porous asphalt mix design specifications) and the Wisconsin Ready Mixed Concrete Association (www.wrmca.com list of pervious concrete contractors). FilterPave (www.filterpave.com), porous pavement made from recycled glass was laid in Baraboo at The International Crane refuge walking paths and observation areas.] salt application can also be significantly reduced because there will not be any standing water to freeze and create dangerous conditions.

Also, still in accordance with piling regulations, the planter sites would be well suited for piling snow because it will allow for faster infiltration and reduces the burden on storm sewers.

Hope this provides a good starting point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To JJM 63:</p>
<p>If a good infiltration base is laid with adequate gap space then these will certainly function better than the alternative. Another benefit is that the presence and proper use of these features can reduce the need for salt by creating a gradient for the melting water to flow into the planters. </p>
<p>If a city were to combine this with porous paving for pathways and streets [also have been tested for icy conditions in Wisconsin -see: The Wisconsin Asphalt Pavement Association (www.wispave.org porous asphalt mix design specifications) and the Wisconsin Ready Mixed Concrete Association (www.wrmca.com list of pervious concrete contractors). FilterPave (www.filterpave.com), porous pavement made from recycled glass was laid in Baraboo at The International Crane refuge walking paths and observation areas.] salt application can also be significantly reduced because there will not be any standing water to freeze and create dangerous conditions.</p>
<p>Also, still in accordance with piling regulations, the planter sites would be well suited for piling snow because it will allow for faster infiltration and reduces the burden on storm sewers.</p>
<p>Hope this provides a good starting point.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Kim Gyr</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-56491</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Kim Gyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-56491</guid>
		<description>Thank you!

As a Michiganian who has lived on both coasts here, and for 31 years in Europe, I am deeply concerned by our absolute dependence on petroleum, especially for food production! Where will any of our urban dwellers get food when all the petroleum is gone, and the fields of South Dakota prove to be too far from Portland, Los Angeles, New York and Miami to be able to deliver grain, meat and fruit etc. to them at affordable prices?!
Most Europeans live much closer to the land, because their cities existed before cars and oil arrived, and most of them have allotments for many to grow their own food.

Please look 60 years down the road for the end of oil, and 2,000 years down the same road for only 20 times the 5 generations that we have met in our own families. Will they thank or condemn us for our sprawling and profligate ways, when we could easily have made their lives so much more sustainable, while we still had the fossil fuels and climate to do it?

Please see my website at www.greenmillennium.eu for some ideas that I hope will spur debate!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you!</p>
<p>As a Michiganian who has lived on both coasts here, and for 31 years in Europe, I am deeply concerned by our absolute dependence on petroleum, especially for food production! Where will any of our urban dwellers get food when all the petroleum is gone, and the fields of South Dakota prove to be too far from Portland, Los Angeles, New York and Miami to be able to deliver grain, meat and fruit etc. to them at affordable prices?!<br />
Most Europeans live much closer to the land, because their cities existed before cars and oil arrived, and most of them have allotments for many to grow their own food.</p>
<p>Please look 60 years down the road for the end of oil, and 2,000 years down the same road for only 20 times the 5 generations that we have met in our own families. Will they thank or condemn us for our sprawling and profligate ways, when we could easily have made their lives so much more sustainable, while we still had the fossil fuels and climate to do it?</p>
<p>Please see my website at <a href="http://www.greenmillennium.eu" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenmillennium.eu</a> for some ideas that I hope will spur debate!</p>
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		<title>By: Hart</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-56291</link>
		<dc:creator>Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-56291</guid>
		<description>I love Portland&#039;s bioswales!!!!  Like beautiful little swamps on each block.  Native plant love!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Portland&#8217;s bioswales!!!!  Like beautiful little swamps on each block.  Native plant love!</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica Roberts</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-56131</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-56131</guid>
		<description>I live in a bike-friendly co-housing community in Portland and we petitioned the city to put in greenstreet curb extensions outside of our buildings. They did, and it has really beautified the corner. I feel pretty lucky.

One other remarkable thing about this program is that Portland has dedicated very little money to stand-alone/infill traffic calming projects (as opposed to corridor projects). Also, from the DOT&#039;s point of view it is just a cost outlay. The partnership with the Bureau of Environmental Services has been great because they actually see a net financial benefit from these projects, so they have a real incentive to free up funding. I encourage advocates to explore this type of partnership and bring in brand new funding sources that aren&#039;t competing against other DOT priorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in a bike-friendly co-housing community in Portland and we petitioned the city to put in greenstreet curb extensions outside of our buildings. They did, and it has really beautified the corner. I feel pretty lucky.</p>
<p>One other remarkable thing about this program is that Portland has dedicated very little money to stand-alone/infill traffic calming projects (as opposed to corridor projects). Also, from the DOT&#8217;s point of view it is just a cost outlay. The partnership with the Bureau of Environmental Services has been great because they actually see a net financial benefit from these projects, so they have a real incentive to free up funding. I encourage advocates to explore this type of partnership and bring in brand new funding sources that aren&#8217;t competing against other DOT priorities.</p>
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		<title>By: JJM 63</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-56121</link>
		<dc:creator>JJM 63</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-56121</guid>
		<description>Does anyone have experience with them in snow and ice country? I&#039;m in upstate NY, and wonder how they would fair after being buried with snow and salt by snowplows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone have experience with them in snow and ice country? I&#8217;m in upstate NY, and wonder how they would fair after being buried with snow and salt by snowplows.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve B</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-56061</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-56061</guid>
		<description>@Matt -- One thing Portland is also good at is not creating enough jobs for both lifelong Portlanders and the newcomers (myself included) who are attracted by the city&#039;s livability.

We are by no means an SF-scale city, but our mixed land-use is pretty good.  The city celebrates the concept of a 20-minute-neighborhood: everyone living in the city should be within a 20 minute walk or bike ride to grocery stores, restaurants, post office, etc.  There is still a lot of work to be done until we can say this is the case for ALL of Portland&#039;s neighborhoods, but it&#039;s inspiring coming from larger cities that don&#039;t have this concept on the table.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matt &#8212; One thing Portland is also good at is not creating enough jobs for both lifelong Portlanders and the newcomers (myself included) who are attracted by the city&#8217;s livability.</p>
<p>We are by no means an SF-scale city, but our mixed land-use is pretty good.  The city celebrates the concept of a 20-minute-neighborhood: everyone living in the city should be within a 20 minute walk or bike ride to grocery stores, restaurants, post office, etc.  There is still a lot of work to be done until we can say this is the case for ALL of Portland&#8217;s neighborhoods, but it&#8217;s inspiring coming from larger cities that don&#8217;t have this concept on the table.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Bialick</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55821</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Bialick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55821</guid>
		<description>Drewl... so beautiful, so efficient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drewl&#8230; so beautiful, so efficient.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Workman</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55801</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Workman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55801</guid>
		<description>Matt, I think they call that urbanite (impenetrable hardscape).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, I think they call that urbanite (impenetrable hardscape).</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55701</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55701</guid>
		<description>Looks beautiful!  We have a ways to go to catch up but rest assured that SF is doing just that.  Folks in the PUC, DPW, Planning, and MTA are working on a variety of projects.  Here are some...

Lake Merced is complete:
sfwater.org/Files/Reports/SunsetSwalesProjectSummary5-10-07.pdf

Leland Ave is underway:
sfgov.org/site/sfdpw_page.asp?id=82253

Cesar Chavez is proposed:
sfgov.org/site/uploadedfiles/planning/City_Design_Group/CDG_mission_cesarchavez.htm

And a variety of smaller projects like bulb outs that allow stormwater to drain into landscaping are proposed around the city.

In the meantime, get your jackhammers out and break through some of the concrete in front of your place!
sfgov.org/site/sfdpw_index.asp?id=42766</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks beautiful!  We have a ways to go to catch up but rest assured that SF is doing just that.  Folks in the PUC, DPW, Planning, and MTA are working on a variety of projects.  Here are some&#8230;</p>
<p>Lake Merced is complete:<br />
sfwater.org/Files/Reports/SunsetSwalesProjectSummary5-10-07.pdf</p>
<p>Leland Ave is underway:<br />
sfgov.org/site/sfdpw_page.asp?id=82253</p>
<p>Cesar Chavez is proposed:<br />
sfgov.org/site/uploadedfiles/planning/City_Design_Group/CDG_mission_cesarchavez.htm</p>
<p>And a variety of smaller projects like bulb outs that allow stormwater to drain into landscaping are proposed around the city.</p>
<p>In the meantime, get your jackhammers out and break through some of the concrete in front of your place!<br />
sfgov.org/site/sfdpw_index.asp?id=42766</p>
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		<title>By: zsolt</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55621</link>
		<dc:creator>zsolt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55621</guid>
		<description>Oh wait this isn&#039;t SFGate.com. I would like to retract my comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh wait this isn&#8217;t SFGate.com. I would like to retract my comment.</p>
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		<title>By: zsolt</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55611</link>
		<dc:creator>zsolt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55611</guid>
		<description>Let me get this straight... if we remove concrete from the sidewalks and plant trees and greenery, then where will San Francisco&#039;s motorists park their cars? Seems to me such projects are an attack on the working class. Shame on you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me get this straight&#8230; if we remove concrete from the sidewalks and plant trees and greenery, then where will San Francisco&#8217;s motorists park their cars? Seems to me such projects are an attack on the working class. Shame on you.</p>
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		<title>By: James Figone</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55571</link>
		<dc:creator>James Figone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55571</guid>
		<description>Thank you for this article.  I continue to be amazed at how other cities are moving forward with very ambitious livable streets improvements.  One of the treatments above looks like a wetland habitat and is quite striking in an urban landscape.

@Matt Garcia: I wonder how many people looking for sustainable way of life are considering moving to Portland vs staying in SF.  It would be interesting to calculate the economic impact of livable streets improvements in terms of property values, health impacts and infrastructure expenditures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this article.  I continue to be amazed at how other cities are moving forward with very ambitious livable streets improvements.  One of the treatments above looks like a wetland habitat and is quite striking in an urban landscape.</p>
<p>@Matt Garcia: I wonder how many people looking for sustainable way of life are considering moving to Portland vs staying in SF.  It would be interesting to calculate the economic impact of livable streets improvements in terms of property values, health impacts and infrastructure expenditures.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah Schaub</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55561</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah Schaub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55561</guid>
		<description>It seems that our problem in San Francisco is the huge amounts of water flowing down very steep streets.  These catch basins require decent amounts of flat land to do any good.  That said, any project that can reduce the amounts of water cascading down hills and flooding houses is a good thing.  This could easily be done in some of our nifty pocket parks we&#039;re making - even call it habitat creation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that our problem in San Francisco is the huge amounts of water flowing down very steep streets.  These catch basins require decent amounts of flat land to do any good.  That said, any project that can reduce the amounts of water cascading down hills and flooding houses is a good thing.  This could easily be done in some of our nifty pocket parks we&#8217;re making &#8211; even call it habitat creation!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Garcia</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55521</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Garcia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55521</guid>
		<description>This is the kind of thing that I wish San Francisco was actively working on more.  There is so much impermeable hardscape in this city and it&#039;s very frustrating to see damaged concrete sidewalks replaced with (shocker) more concrete.  I don&#039;t know much about the issue but it seems like the problem is an intersection of private-owner&#039;s responsibility for the sidewalk in front of their property and DPW not even having enough money to repair already-damaged sidewalks (much less dramatically change walkways that are undamaged).  

And while there are programs out there for individuals to change their property (plantsf.org etc.) there just isn&#039;t enough being done on a city level to improve the way our landscape handles stormwater and sewers polluting the Bay.  It just seems as though it would be so beneficial to our city in the long run if we had effective and sustainable stormwater management in the form of permeable softscape.  

Sigh.  Time to check those Portland job listings...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the kind of thing that I wish San Francisco was actively working on more.  There is so much impermeable hardscape in this city and it&#8217;s very frustrating to see damaged concrete sidewalks replaced with (shocker) more concrete.  I don&#8217;t know much about the issue but it seems like the problem is an intersection of private-owner&#8217;s responsibility for the sidewalk in front of their property and DPW not even having enough money to repair already-damaged sidewalks (much less dramatically change walkways that are undamaged).  </p>
<p>And while there are programs out there for individuals to change their property (plantsf.org etc.) there just isn&#8217;t enough being done on a city level to improve the way our landscape handles stormwater and sewers polluting the Bay.  It just seems as though it would be so beneficial to our city in the long run if we had effective and sustainable stormwater management in the form of permeable softscape.  </p>
<p>Sigh.  Time to check those Portland job listings&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dude</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/13/portlands-greenstreets-program-a-sterling-best-practice-model/comment-page-1/#comment-55511</link>
		<dc:creator>dude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=85331#comment-55511</guid>
		<description>this is all wonderful, but the image above with the caption &quot;the holy trinity...&quot; reveals another thing about Portland -- not always the best land use or development pattern. I suppose that will change over time, but Portland has a lot of great street design mixed in with some fairly suburban-style older development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is all wonderful, but the image above with the caption &#8220;the holy trinity&#8230;&#8221; reveals another thing about Portland &#8212; not always the best land use or development pattern. I suppose that will change over time, but Portland has a lot of great street design mixed in with some fairly suburban-style older development.</p>
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