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	<title>Comments on: Eyes on the Street: Is this Our Stop? Signage Shortcomings on Muni Metro</title>
	<atom:link href="http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/</link>
	<description>Covering San Francisco&#039;s livable streets movement</description>
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		<title>By: Andy Chow</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58281</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Chow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58281</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know what you&#039;re talking about. Some agencies do have customer service centers at transit centers (like Long Beach). Many have all the schedules and map in one book. A lot of agencies also have system maps in shelters.

Muni isn&#039;t any better than some other agencies. The fact that they charge for maps isn&#039;t helping (many of them for free). Different styles of bus and Metro stops are unusual: http://www.transitunlimited.org/Muni_bus_stops , along with unusual fare policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't know what you're talking about. Some agencies do have customer service centers at transit centers (like Long Beach). Many have all the schedules and map in one book. A lot of agencies also have system maps in shelters.</p>
<p>Muni isn't any better than some other agencies. The fact that they charge for maps isn't helping (many of them for free). Different styles of bus and Metro stops are unusual: <a href="http://www.transitunlimited.org/Muni_bus_stops" rel="nofollow">http://www.transitunlimited.org/Muni_bus_stops</a> , along with unusual fare policy.</p>
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		<title>By: peternatural</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58201</link>
		<dc:creator>peternatural</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58201</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s how they do it in other cities (besides SF and NYC):

There are no maps of the transit system. There is one transit office, in an obscure, unmarked location. If you can find it (though you probably can&#039;t), you are welcome to collect the individually printed schedules of each of the various bus or subway lines. Perhaps you are interested in the 33 bus, or the 17, or the 112X? Take a separate schedule for each. But if you don&#039;t know which ones you need because you don&#039;t even know what options exist to get from point A to point B, well then, maybe you can collect them all and then spend a bunch of hours trying to figure out how they all fit together. Good luck with that.

In contrast, here in SF, high quality MUNI maps that show the whole system are widely available at stores throughout town, and they only cost a few bucks. Just about every bus shelter (like the one in the picture on 9th Ave.) has one inside it. And the light rail trains have them inside too. So it&#039;s actually not that hard for tourists to figure out where they are and how to get where they are going, as long as they are willing to clue in just a tad and maybe shell out a few dollars for a lovely map.

I&#039;m failing to see the problem here, coach!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here's how they do it in other cities (besides SF and NYC):</p>
<p>There are no maps of the transit system. There is one transit office, in an obscure, unmarked location. If you can find it (though you probably can't), you are welcome to collect the individually printed schedules of each of the various bus or subway lines. Perhaps you are interested in the 33 bus, or the 17, or the 112X? Take a separate schedule for each. But if you don't know which ones you need because you don't even know what options exist to get from point A to point B, well then, maybe you can collect them all and then spend a bunch of hours trying to figure out how they all fit together. Good luck with that.</p>
<p>In contrast, here in SF, high quality MUNI maps that show the whole system are widely available at stores throughout town, and they only cost a few bucks. Just about every bus shelter (like the one in the picture on 9th Ave.) has one inside it. And the light rail trains have them inside too. So it's actually not that hard for tourists to figure out where they are and how to get where they are going, as long as they are willing to clue in just a tad and maybe shell out a few dollars for a lovely map.</p>
<p>I'm failing to see the problem here, coach!!</p>
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		<title>By: taomom</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58191</link>
		<dc:creator>taomom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58191</guid>
		<description>I consult my free downloaded pdf of the SF bike map all the time.  I also get out my hard copy (that I admit I got free when I joined the SF Bike Coalition) to discuss optimal routes to take with my family members.  It&#039;s starting to fray at the folds.  Am hoping the city someday soon will stripe new bike lanes and then I&#039;ll get an updated one.

We had a German foreign exchange student with us this summer.  She had a dreadful map of the city that her aunt had given her.  We got her the basic Muni bus map sold at drugstores, (not free, but worth the money) and then she successfully took Muni all over the city (although she did have the usual ridiculous waits, etc.)  A good map is invaluable.  Then again, I&#039;ve always been a map person.  Also worth noting you can download a pdf of the SF Muni map for free as well.

It *is* difficult to know where to get off on Muni.  That&#039;s one of the big benefits of underground subway systems (besides the speed, lack of traffic, etc.)  All the stops have names, they appear in a clearly defined order with big signs, and you can pinpoint just where the stop will place you in the city when you emerge. It&#039;s far simpler to get from point A to point B on the Paris metro, even for someone who doesn&#039;t speak French, than a comparable trip on SF Muni.  Better signage, especially for likely tourist destinations, would certainly help.  The announcements on the bus PA systems aren&#039;t always so easy to hear or comprehend, especially when you usually have only five seconds to plow through a bunch of people and get out the back door before the bus moves on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I consult my free downloaded pdf of the SF bike map all the time.  I also get out my hard copy (that I admit I got free when I joined the SF Bike Coalition) to discuss optimal routes to take with my family members.  It's starting to fray at the folds.  Am hoping the city someday soon will stripe new bike lanes and then I'll get an updated one.</p>
<p>We had a German foreign exchange student with us this summer.  She had a dreadful map of the city that her aunt had given her.  We got her the basic Muni bus map sold at drugstores, (not free, but worth the money) and then she successfully took Muni all over the city (although she did have the usual ridiculous waits, etc.)  A good map is invaluable.  Then again, I've always been a map person.  Also worth noting you can download a pdf of the SF Muni map for free as well.</p>
<p>It *is* difficult to know where to get off on Muni.  That's one of the big benefits of underground subway systems (besides the speed, lack of traffic, etc.)  All the stops have names, they appear in a clearly defined order with big signs, and you can pinpoint just where the stop will place you in the city when you emerge. It's far simpler to get from point A to point B on the Paris metro, even for someone who doesn't speak French, than a comparable trip on SF Muni.  Better signage, especially for likely tourist destinations, would certainly help.  The announcements on the bus PA systems aren't always so easy to hear or comprehend, especially when you usually have only five seconds to plow through a bunch of people and get out the back door before the bus moves on.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Chow</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58181</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Chow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58181</guid>
		<description>I went ahead and made a map of transit in the Golden Gate Park area: http://www.transitunlimited.org/File:Ggpmuni.png

My issue is that Muni does not have consistent signage even for bus stops. Some stops you get a nice sign with numbers and destinations, some stops are marked by a yellow band on street poles, and some stops only have yellow numbers on the pavement. I&#039;ve yet to see another agencies to have such inconsistent signage. Down in San Diego county, rural bus stops with service once a week are as well marked as those in downtown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went ahead and made a map of transit in the Golden Gate Park area: <a href="http://www.transitunlimited.org/File:Ggpmuni.png" rel="nofollow">http://www.transitunlimited.org/File:Ggpmuni.png</a></p>
<p>My issue is that Muni does not have consistent signage even for bus stops. Some stops you get a nice sign with numbers and destinations, some stops are marked by a yellow band on street poles, and some stops only have yellow numbers on the pavement. I've yet to see another agencies to have such inconsistent signage. Down in San Diego county, rural bus stops with service once a week are as well marked as those in downtown.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Fischer</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58151</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58151</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know the politics behind who owns the map, but you can still download a copy for free from http://www.sfbike.org/download/map.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't know the politics behind who owns the map, but you can still download a copy for free from <a href="http://www.sfbike.org/download/map.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfbike.org/download/map.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: wheelchairgirl</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58141</link>
		<dc:creator>wheelchairgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58141</guid>
		<description>@DaveO: 

I used to rely on a steady supply of the Pedestrian and Cycle Maps which used to be available for cheap or free from the City; the maps have slope marked, which is really important for wheelchairs, and very helpful to folks who can&#039;t walk well and want to avoid hills.

Unfortunately, said map has somehow ended up in the sole possession of a certain SF bicycle group, and I am much more reluctant to give them my money when I used to get the map from the city for cheaper or free. Once again pedestrians and bicyclists seem to be at odds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DaveO: </p>
<p>I used to rely on a steady supply of the Pedestrian and Cycle Maps which used to be available for cheap or free from the City; the maps have slope marked, which is really important for wheelchairs, and very helpful to folks who can't walk well and want to avoid hills.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, said map has somehow ended up in the sole possession of a certain SF bicycle group, and I am much more reluctant to give them my money when I used to get the map from the city for cheaper or free. Once again pedestrians and bicyclists seem to be at odds.</p>
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		<title>By: Yokota Fritz</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58091</link>
		<dc:creator>Yokota Fritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58091</guid>
		<description>Whenever I&#039;m going to an unfamiliar destination on an unfamiliar bus, I just ask the other passengers. It *is* difficult to know your stop on Muni.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever I'm going to an unfamiliar destination on an unfamiliar bus, I just ask the other passengers. It *is* difficult to know your stop on Muni.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveO</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-58071</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-58071</guid>
		<description>&quot;One simple thing the City could do is provide better paper maps. Nearly all the tourists complain about the crappy maps (and rightly so).&quot;

&quot;The standard map that visitors get from their hotels or maybe from the SF Convention &amp; Visitors Bureau is atrocious.&quot;

This is so indicative of the mindset of most San Franciscans that all our problems must be solved by someone else.  You have each identified a need in the market.  Go out and fill it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"One simple thing the City could do is provide better paper maps. Nearly all the tourists complain about the crappy maps (and rightly so)."</p>
<p>"The standard map that visitors get from their hotels or maybe from the SF Convention &amp; Visitors Bureau is atrocious."</p>
<p>This is so indicative of the mindset of most San Franciscans that all our problems must be solved by someone else.  You have each identified a need in the market.  Go out and fill it.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57961</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57961</guid>
		<description>They should be able to red zone 2-3 of those parking spots at 9th and Irving to provide a larger rain shelter/destination point. Who knows why this hasn&#039;t been done like 20 years ago already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should be able to red zone 2-3 of those parking spots at 9th and Irving to provide a larger rain shelter/destination point. Who knows why this hasn't been done like 20 years ago already.</p>
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		<title>By: mikesonn</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57931</link>
		<dc:creator>mikesonn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57931</guid>
		<description>I believe the point was that the sign you are referring to is not located near a transit stop and for the pedestrians to even see that sign they would have to already be walking in the correct direction - also implying that they would have needed to get off at the correct transit stop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the point was that the sign you are referring to is not located near a transit stop and for the pedestrians to even see that sign they would have to already be walking in the correct direction - also implying that they would have needed to get off at the correct transit stop.</p>
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		<title>By: EL</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57921</link>
		<dc:creator>EL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57921</guid>
		<description>I just checked and confirmed that the backside of that Golden Gate Park sign has wayfinding directions for pedestrians.  I guess it&#039;s assumed that the large letters on the front side can be read by pedestrians as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just checked and confirmed that the backside of that Golden Gate Park sign has wayfinding directions for pedestrians.  I guess it's assumed that the large letters on the front side can be read by pedestrians as well.</p>
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		<title>By: EL</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57911</link>
		<dc:creator>EL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57911</guid>
		<description>No, I don&#039;t troll much, thank you.  I believe the City is already planning to put a bulb-out at this very corner.  If it&#039;s the author&#039;s position that the added space should be used for large wayfinding signs and maps, rather keeping this very busy corner wide where it&#039;s needed the most, then the author should state that.

Regarding &quot;architectural prowess&quot;, the sign illustrated in Golden Gate Park shows a poorly designed sign, where the bottom 3 lines are blocked by cars.  The caption beneath the photo also suggests that pedestrians are somehow unable to take advantage of this really tall sign and that a separate sign for pedestrians is also needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I don't troll much, thank you.  I believe the City is already planning to put a bulb-out at this very corner.  If it's the author's position that the added space should be used for large wayfinding signs and maps, rather keeping this very busy corner wide where it's needed the most, then the author should state that.</p>
<p>Regarding "architectural prowess", the sign illustrated in Golden Gate Park shows a poorly designed sign, where the bottom 3 lines are blocked by cars.  The caption beneath the photo also suggests that pedestrians are somehow unable to take advantage of this really tall sign and that a separate sign for pedestrians is also needed.</p>
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		<title>By: mikesonn</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57891</link>
		<dc:creator>mikesonn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57891</guid>
		<description>I often find myself giving directions - be it on MUNI or just walking around. Though, living in North Beach everyone has a map and looks lost.

On a side note, I think BART and Caltrain should have electric message boards to announce stops. On BART, not so much Caltrain, you can never hear the announcement for what the next station is. Maybe even a note saying if it is a left or right exit so people can position themselves better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I often find myself giving directions - be it on MUNI or just walking around. Though, living in North Beach everyone has a map and looks lost.</p>
<p>On a side note, I think BART and Caltrain should have electric message boards to announce stops. On BART, not so much Caltrain, you can never hear the announcement for what the next station is. Maybe even a note saying if it is a left or right exit so people can position themselves better.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Bialick</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57871</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Bialick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57871</guid>
		<description>Haha, I have found myself providing such services for tourists on Muni as a fellow passenger (definitely for the 9th and Irving stop). I wonder how much Muni relies on the friendliness and volunteerism of residents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha, I have found myself providing such services for tourists on Muni as a fellow passenger (definitely for the 9th and Irving stop). I wonder how much Muni relies on the friendliness and volunteerism of residents.</p>
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		<title>By: dannnnnnny</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57851</link>
		<dc:creator>dannnnnnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57851</guid>
		<description>what all muni metro lines need are real stops, like on the t or f lines.  right now muni metro functions like a bus on rails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what all muni metro lines need are real stops, like on the t or f lines.  right now muni metro functions like a bus on rails.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57841</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57841</guid>
		<description>The standard map that visitors get from their hotels or maybe from the SF Convention &amp; Visitors Bureau is atrocious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The standard map that visitors get from their hotels or maybe from the SF Convention &amp; Visitors Bureau is atrocious.</p>
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		<title>By: Monkeyface News</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57821</link>
		<dc:creator>Monkeyface News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57821</guid>
		<description>I have the same problem at the &quot;Parnassus&quot; stop on the N Judah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the same problem at the "Parnassus" stop on the N Judah.</p>
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		<title>By: Diane</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57801</link>
		<dc:creator>Diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57801</guid>
		<description>I live at 9th and Irving, and on a cold, rainy day when the windows are all fogged up, even I have trouble knowing when it&#039;s my stop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live at 9th and Irving, and on a cold, rainy day when the windows are all fogged up, even I have trouble knowing when it's my stop.</p>
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		<title>By: Seven</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57791</link>
		<dc:creator>Seven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57791</guid>
		<description>I try to always carry a map for when I see lost tourists trying to find the museums in Golden Gate Park.

One simple thing the City could do is provide better paper maps. Nearly all the tourists complain about the crappy maps (and rightly so).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try to always carry a map for when I see lost tourists trying to find the museums in Golden Gate Park.</p>
<p>One simple thing the City could do is provide better paper maps. Nearly all the tourists complain about the crappy maps (and rightly so).</p>
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		<title>By: mikesonn</title>
		<link>http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/eyes-on-the-street-is-this-our-stop-signage-shortcomings-on-muni-metro/comment-page-1/#comment-57781</link>
		<dc:creator>mikesonn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sf.streetsblog.org/?p=91611#comment-57781</guid>
		<description>Troll much? Maybe a bulb out is in order then. People shouldn&#039;t have to dip between cars to get to a bus/light rail. This would also provide more space for the signage and there would be no need to complain!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Troll much? Maybe a bulb out is in order then. People shouldn't have to dip between cars to get to a bus/light rail. This would also provide more space for the signage and there would be no need to complain!</p>
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