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    Filling in the underpass would allow the crosswalk the man got killed in to be reopened.


    Bob Gunderson

    Let’s not get rid of this gorgeous view – parking as far as the eye can see!



    Is this the same Greg that’s bitching and moaning how about how difficult it could be to sit in a private, climate controlled vehicle, suffering such grave injustices like being stuck in gridlock or circling around for parking?


    Dark Soul

    I though this was specifically about the man who got killed for crossing a closed crosswalk



    I doubt that opening one crosswalk at Fell and Gough would result in significant traffic diversions. But if you did end up with significant congestion across the wider street network, you could manage it with congestion pricing.

    The idea that we need to sacrifice certain streets to traffic in order to save other streets needs to be killed. Fell and Oak were built as residential streets, and were later converted into arterials. If you are concerned about traffic impacts, how about helping out the people who live on those streets and have been living with the impacts of high speed motor traffic for decades?



    The real problem in my mind re efficiency vs politeness is what sheep people are. I gotta say to these indignant folks, so cry us all a river, you’re in a single-passenger vehicle just like these other assholes! Not a good use of SFPD’s time to ticket people committing a ‘jerk move’ when pedestrians’ rights of way are violated on the regular during commute hours.

    Besides, as one SFGate commenter points out, if you have to commute to the East Bay you can use an alternate route through SOMA (via Franklin/Fell) and probably save if not take the same amount of time. Not exactly rocket science, this stuff.



    From the BART Document article:

    Board members today could also vote to spend $800,000 to purchase 325 more electronic bike lockers, which have been “pretty popular” based on customer feedback, according to Allison.

    The agency’s current contract only allows for 37 more lockers to be purchased. There are 1,150 lockers at 35 stations in operation.


    Andy Chow

    More like a workplace-related death.


    Andy Chow

    I was thinking about an idea of extending the N line downtown the Great Highway to connect with the L line. Even if it were to be used on an emergency basis, it would help improve the operation for the N in case if there’s any service interruption along the line.



    [citation needed]



    I think that making more room for the ocean is a great idea, at Sloat and along the GHW. However, adding parking along the upper great highway is a horrible idea. The city cannot keep up with the trash and debris in just a few garbage cans along the bike path. More parking = more trash. Until SPUR shows some understanding for the current state, I don’t think that they can hope to create a feasible plan for the future.


    Andy Chow

    The Oak/Fell corridor was designated to protect the rest of the inner neighborhoods. If the idea is that there shouldn’t be any street designed to accommodate higher volume regional traffic, then the cars are going to flood onto other streets, impacting transit that use those streets.



    They’ll have to slow down slightly as they drive to work. Big deal.

    Remember, we’re not trying to make everyone to switch to transit, we’re just trying to tilt the cost/benefit assessment of the various commuting options towards transit/cycling/walking and away from driving, so that people for whom transit/cycling/walking is a viable option are likely to make the switch.

    Someone driving from (say) Bayview to the Sunset for work will probably continue to do so; and that’s fine, because those people make up a relatively small number of commuters. We shouldn’t postpone safety and service improvements to transit/cycling/walking just because some people will have a slightly longer drive as a result and don’t have a viable transit alternative.





    Thanks for the clarification — and for reading the article more thoroughly than I did!



    In my world the answer is “improve the transit”, not “screw Hayes Valley”.

    Of course your reply is “once the transit is in place, then we can fix the roads”, but that is simply a strategy to make it more difficult to change the status quo and preserve your stated preference. Oldest trick in the book after “Madest thou look. Hah!’



    This was mentioned in the SF Gate article. There’s a difference between the case where two lanes are merging into one, where the zipper merge is the most efficient means, and the case where vehicles are blocking a thru lane in order to merge into the turning lane. This latter case is definitely not efficient for anyone involved.



    Exactly. We have to get past this notion of neighborhoods existing so people can drive through them at the highest speeds possible.



    Seems to me that a pretty good road diet could be achieved even without removing lanes, by just taking out that huge median. The intersections with stop signs absolutely don’t need turn lanes, and the ones with signals could function just as well without turn lanes by implementing smarter signalization.

    Ditching the median and slimming the travel lanes further would calm speeds and make this road feel a lot less like a “highway”, while also freeing up a lot of space to work with.



    And you know this for a fact because?



    Puhleeze. Crosswalks are not exactly the death of car travel. Crossing streets are a dangerous part of being a pedestrian. Why should we have to wait and cross three times when we could cross once?



    Why should Hayes Valley suffer because people from the western neighborhoods want to drive everywhere? The inner neighborhoods deserve safe, calm streets as much as does the outer sunset.



    The “no ped crossing signs” predate the removal of the freeway and were, in fact, probably installed when the freeway was built, to make freeway access more expedient. Note: The world hasn’t ended since the sign was removed at Hayes/Gough. I don’t expect Armageddon at Fell/Gough either.



    I think that it’s about time that a “neighborhood sign removal action” takes place. MTA has been dickering around since the 1990′s. It’s all too clear that moving cars is their priority.



    It’s easy to see merging as a moral issue of rudeness vs politeness. But there’s been some interesting research that queueing up in a single lane actually makes traffic go slower for everyone. See



    “Overbuilt” is not a synonym for “all right”.


    Bill McLaughlin

    SPUR’s chief task with the Master Plan is fixing the erosion mess south of Sloat. This is the issue that sparked the creation of the whole OBMP process. Closing the main stretch of road between Lincoln and Sloat may be necessary to preserve the beach in 30 years or so, but not in the near future. Neighorhood traffic concerns are legitimate as GH traffic volume spikes radically on warm sunny weekends. Let’s start with a good fix for south Sloat (that includes a new parking lot / restroom facility properly located away from the bluff edge). Plenty of focus, time and money will be needed just to make this part of the MP successful.



    If things are all right on the lower great highway now – why take a chance?



    The surfers would probably benefit most from the parking. They were vocal at Crissy, silent now?



    I’ve never actually seen this road with many cars on it. How could it be controversial removing a lane from a road that is so completely overbuilt like this?



    Nah, nothing is getting past the huge concrete wall for awhile, and the Army Corps presumably adds sand back to the beach every year.



    Back in the 1970′s Muni should have went with Siemens U2 LRV instead of the lemons called Boeing Vertrol LRV aka North American Standard LRV. In the 1990′s Muni could have went with Siemens SD 100 instead of the Bredas. In other cities Siemens have operated very well.



    Plenty of right of way. I would argue for simply filling in the underpass and bringing the four underground lanes to the surface rather than trying to build a station down there. That gives at least six surface travel lanes + two surface parking lanes on the block east of Presidio and the block west of Masonic.

    There are already six surface travel lanes + one surface parking lane on the block in between Masonic and Presidio. You could find space for another two travel lanes (left turns onto Masonic) by removing the parking and that scrubby median. The BRT station would probably be located on the west side of the intersection with Masonic, where there is more space and turn lanes are less necessary.

    I’m not sure why the driveways effect anything – there are already driveways opening out onto Geary in many places where it is a six-lane surface road.



    Not as much right-of-way, especially if a station is to be built there. Plus it’s asymmetrical, and the left turns from westbound Geary onto Masonic (currently one of the busiest maneuvers) would probably have to be banned, causing problems elsewhere.

    Oh, and there are houses and driveways along the outer Masonic roadways, which aren’t as much of a problem at Fillmore (except the KFC/Taco Bell eastbound at Steiner).



    Why? It’s exactly the same as Fillmore, except it’s four lanes wide instead of six, and it goes under two intersections instead of one.


    Upright Biker

    You know, the fact of the matter is we _are_ getting there. What used to be a clusterf***k in the area pictured above is a whole lot better. The Beach Chalet is delightful, and we even take visitors to the Cliff House for a meal and a view.

    In the end, though, (and I warned about this way back when I sensed Ed Lee backing off from his support for livable cities initiatives such as Sunday Meters, and the whole “Restore Balance” crowd started to gain some headway) it seems the political winds have slacked off a bit even if they haven’t exactly shifted completely away from the ideals of the Transit First Policy. These are people who commission and then read polls very closely, so it’s no surprise SPUR also has their finger to the wind and is sacrificing the controversial for the essential in this election cycle.


    Miles Bader

    The fact that the lane removal is “most controversial” is so sad… Even without the erosion issue, giant roads like this which cut off the coastline from access are insane full-stop.



    Forget SPUR. I think Ocean Beach will put Great Highway on a road diet–a starvation diet at that.



    How about an unofficial road diet?

    That is, do not repave the outer lanes. Have a nice smooth left lane, a nice smooth bike lane, and a right lane that feels like driving on Mars.

    The lane is still there for all the traffic that “needs” it, but $5 most drivers merge to the left lane…where their speed is set by the slowest driver?



    Let’s say some traffic changing item could have been put in a place on Folsom for 1 million that saves Amelie Le Moullac’s life. Aside from the emotional component, Le Moullac was 24 and by all accounts a very productive young woman. She would almost certainly pay many times 1 million dollars in taxes over her lifetime, and accelerate money into the economy many times past that.

    We have a clear example here – it is not just time, it’s also safety. And making the statement that it is the pedestrians fault will fall on deaf ears – results are what matter.


    Don't Ever Change Ever

    While obviously no reasonable person would infer that the intersection in question was meant for pedestrians, technically it could be an unmarked crosswalk.

    California’s definition of a crosswalk makes no distinction between a divided highway or any other type of road:

    “(a) That portion of a roadway included within the prolongation or connection of the boundary lines of sidewalks at intersections where the intersecting roadways meet at approximately right angles, except the prolongation of such lines from an alley across a street.”

    Furthermore, California’s definition of an intersection does not require one street to cross another:

    “An ‘intersection’ is the area embraced within the prolongation of the property lines of two or more streets which join at an angle, whether or not one such street crosses the other.”



    Aaron Peskin really is a piece of work. Is there any development anywhere that he doesn’t oppose?



    Legally it’s a divided highway, and the intersection does not extend across (even for autos), so there is no unmarked crosswalk.



    The Fillmore one is easy. The Masonic one is hard.



    I’m not sure how to explain this, because you really don’t seem to be understanding that concept of there needing to be a balance between competing goals, and/or lack of infinite resources. There are lots of things I’d rather our government not spend money on. I’ve also never used Doyle Drive, but clearly someone made a decision that that project was a worthwhile cost to achieve one of our collective mobility goals. Don’t like it, figure out who it was and work to vote them out of office.

    My point was, we clearly can’t prioritize convenience for everyone all the time, and had you read my post, you’d have seen that I listed a whole bunch of arguments that I would consider compelling reasons to justify changing the design. Inconveniencing what is probably a relatively few people to walk 1000 ft (aka, one block) out of their way is acceptable to me, albeit the edge of acceptable. Now, if this was routine, I’d say no, if this was inconveniencing lots of people, I’d say no, or if it was inconveniencing a good number of people with mobility problems, I’d say no, not acceptable. If you look at the Google map, the main attraction, the shopping mall, doesn’t even have an entrance on that corner, and I would imagine, that was completely intentional.


    Chris J.

    Yeah, what’s the reason for prioritizing this cosmetic change ahead of all the other projects that can actually increase safety? It especially doesn’t make sense if there’s a chance they’ll need to do it yet again to widen it.


    Jym Dyer

    @donsf2003 – I guess it’s because people here are interested in substantive issues rather than vapid ad hominem pattern-matching.


    Andy Chow

    To be a safe crosswalk there you need to make it signalized. If the crosswalk is synced like other signals along Geary, delays to auto is not significant, but it requires money that could’ve spent to improve crossing elsewhere where it is more needed.



    I don’t see you crying a river when we spend over a billion dollars to bring Doyle Drive up to the current specs of what would be considered safe. By your standards we should just close it down. They can just take Lincoln or any number of other roads through our National Park, the Presidio.



    No, the 4 minute delay is not to save every motorist from a 2 second delay. It’s to save the city from probably having to spent about $1M to bring that intersection up to the current specs of what would be considered a safe crosswalk and compliant with ADA standards. And, even if it was a delay imposed on one form of travel vs. another, those are trade-offs that have to be made sometimes. I don’t see anyone on here crying a river when a 10-minute delay gets added to someone’s auto commute, but no delay is acceptable for pedestrians? Let’s at least keep this at a reasonable level of discussion. :-/