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    Nobody should fear the voters having more say in what their neighborhood looks like and how their neighborhood works. I don’t think we can have too much democracy.



    The article mentions that there were some activists there and that is typical for such meetings. The meeting should have been only for local residents.



    The principles behind some of these ideas may well represent a long-standing agreement. But the specifics of where and how to implement them is another matter altogether.

    I do not believe that such a project should go ahead if a clear majority of the local residents and voters oppose it. And any local politicians who ignores what her voters want may find herself not being re-elected and replaced by someone who listens more and talks less.



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    I don’t understand why they can’t simply issue metal plates right at the dealer. Just assign each dealer a stack of plates, and have them report which car they’re attached to as they drive off the lot.


    Pat Redman

    Timely analysis ! Apropos , you are requiring a a form , my company filled out and esigned a template form here


    Dave Moore

    Also, I support the system, irrespective of the outcome. I’m certainly not a transit or cycling activist. I’m happy with some of the changes that have happened (Oak / Fell), and unhappy with others (Masonic). I think the legislators and bureaucrats pander to whoever yells loudest for political gain, ignoring facts and abdicating their responsibility to make sensible tradeoffs. The notion of direct democracy on these issues seems like an even worse version of what we already have.


    Dave Moore

    Dangerous? I support the system we have, where we vote for people. You appear to want a radically different system or maybe think we have one already. Please don’t bring up the proposition process again. It’s an outlier.



    From the article 60 people attended the meeting and I only see a reference to two ‘transit activists’: Walk SF and San Francisco Transit Riders. It seems like you are making up facts.



    And yet full-time activists are far more likely to be able to show up at 10 am than regular people. And they did, en masse



    True…Yet, it’d have been worth it for the long term decades from now in many, many ways if ya think about it…A 28 19th ave light rail streetcar line that obviously doesn’t pollute, along with having timed lights at all its intersections going on the exact same route the 28’s going right now is just what 19th ave needs. There hasn’t been reliable, punctual transportation on the Highway 1 corridor in decades..That’s a damn shame right there in itself.

    Not to mention that it’d have a couple less stops along its route than the current 28 diesel bus line..For example, along the carless(damn imagine that!!) surface of 19th ave, it could have its Sunset district stops spaced out like this-After the stop at Sloat/19th ave for Stern Grove, the next stop would be at Vicente, followed by Taraval, Quintara, Noriega, Lawton(for Shriners), Judah and Lincoln Way before it continues north through Golden Gate Park to eventually reach its Aquatic Park terminal.

    You add traffic being underground along 19th ave between Junipero Serra and Irving, bikes/peds sharing the surface of 19th ave with the streetcars and there’s a win-win situation right there for all parties..Imagine the Sunday Streets events along the 19th ave corridor!! Cars would have unimpeded travel north/south underneath Highway 1 and everyone can do their thing on the surface.

    Keep in mind that the 28 streetcar would share 19th ave with the M Ocean View in my plan and since the lights would be timed, both the 28 & M could share trackage along the M’s section of 19th ave without
    any problems.

    Also, another thing is that since the 28 line whether it’d be a streetcar or bus would obviously have extremely high ridership, MUNI could also run some historic trolleys on the 28 line as needed. When I thought this idea up I envisioned the 28 streetcar having low-floor platform stops at all its stops to allow both LRVs and historic streetcars to operate in service on the line at any given time. That would include constructing low floor right-side boarding platforms at the Stonestown & SF State stops on 19th ave since the M & 28 would be sharing tracks on that section of 19th ave.

    A couple examples of how the historic trolleys would improve the 28 are when there aren’t enough LRVs available in general and also for service on holidays/important times of the year such as New Years/Fleet Week/4th of July, the historic trolleys would help add even more service on the 28 line.

    Keep in mind MUNI currently has at least 30 unrestored trolleys(basically if MUNI had enough $ to restore them, then they’d have enough trolleys to not only run on the E&F lines but also to put on the 28 line as needed). Lastly, with those trolleys given the same type of restoration by the same contractor MUNI currently uses to restore the historic trolleys already in service on the E&F lines, they’d be in great operating shape for a good couple decades before needing another refurbishment.



    So democracy to you is “meddling and mob rule”?

    Holding a single meeting scheduled at a time that prevents working people from attending is not a decisive demonstration of democracy, not by a long shot.


    Jamison Wieser

    The recent outreach meetings are at the tail end of almost a decade of planning which goes back the Transit Effectiveness Project and was full of outreach meetings along the way.

    The way this (or any design process) is supposed to work is that the options get narrowed down along the way and towards the very end the SFTMA has been asking for feedback on whether the boarding platforms should be placed before or after the signal lights.

    It’s unfair to everyone who’s taken part along the way if a small minority of people who show up at the end can upset all of that.



    Have a nice vacation Roger!



    California is finally reforming its much-abused paper dealer license plate law… In 2019.



    Sure but, even so, you can[t give many examples of where cars have been put underground, except Boston, which almost everyone agrees it was a disaster.



    So democracy to you is “meddling and mob rule”? That is a stunning comment. You actually believe that people and voters are not allowed to decide what kind of society they want.


    Jamison Wieser


    Voters actually created the SFMTA in 1999 in part to isolate and insulate Muni and transportation issues from political meddling and mob rule. Performance goals were established for Muni and here we are with not everyone happy over what it’s going to take to make Muni work.

    SFTMA has to consider more than the preferences of merchants and nearby residents. Beyond the performance goal there are city and state requirements (some imposed again by voters) to reduce carbon emissions, improve safety, and on like that.


    1Hiram Sclafani




    Yeah, except that I’m not (only) talking about small towns in Kansas. Even when we are talking about “large, congested cities,” transit is rarely, if ever, exclusively underground. New York City, which has the biggest subway system in North America, has recently started putting in dedicated bus lanes to complement the subway system.

    Some cities have barely any subway at all. Chicago’s train system, for example (and I mean both the El and the suburban commuter trains), is mostly elevated, although occasionally some lines pass through tunnels. Detroit, for obvious reasons, has never had any underground trains. Houston has no subway. Miami, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Seattle, Minneapolis, and many other medium to large cities have no subway, either.


    SF Guest

    Resentment for opposing boarding islands which is a safety related issue is not bigotry for sure. Calling for cars to be banned from Taraval which restricts access to private garages and calling motorists pigheaded fits the formal definition of “stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.”

    The message presented is if businesses and/or motorists don’t go along with building boarding islands the next step is to ban motor vehicles which represents an anti-car bias.



    Sure, Alicia, I dare say that towns in Kansas don’t need to decide what to put underground. But we’re talking here about large congested cities where things have gotten to the point where “something” has to be undergrounded. And that is typically transit.

    I’d also refer you to Europe where, again, I can’t think of any major city were the major highways are put underground. But many of them have subway or light rail systems underground.

    Tunnels aside, of course. And we do have a few examples in SF e.g. the Geary underpasses, the Stockton tunnel and the Broadway tunnel. I suppose you could add Devil’s Slide although it’s outside the city and rather a special case.



    If by “almost universal”, you mean how they do it in the handful of cities in North America who have an actual subway system, then yes, it’s “almost universal.” Meanwhile, in the other 95% of North America, transit and cars are both on the surface. Even cities that do have subways also complement the subway service with a bus network.


    Boogey Buckley

    My business partners needed IRS 1023 recently and discovered an excellent service that has a ton of fillable forms . If you are interested in IRS 1023 too , here’s



    Sigh… as always, whenever a project that helps the overall good goes for a hearing, there’s always the big mob of pissed-off people who will say no.

    Thinking about the L-Taraval, I strongly welcome boarding islands, even if that meant sacrificing some parking. The people on Judah Street have boarding islands and took away some parking, but life continued on just fine. There’s plenty of ways to make up for the lost spaces like a wide enough adjacent street to accept 45 degree angled parking or maybe people finally cleaning out their garage and using for what it’s meant to be, parking your vehicle. Anyway, isn’t passenger safety more important?

    Traffic lights is an awesome way to make the train go faster. Sure, each installation of a traffic signal at an intersection is a lot of money, but with priority for the trains, it means going through an intersection versus coming to a complete stop and continuing on. This is done at 9th and Judah and 9th and Irving, the trains get priority to turn while stopping all other traffic and preventing pedestrians from crossing in the train’s path.

    As for cutting stops, it makes the ride quicker; can’t people just sacrifice an extra few minutes walking to the next stop? If it’s on a hill, use gravity people, it’s easier to walk downhill to the nearest stop.



    Do you really dare to blow through a Muni metro stop while passengers are boarding or disembarking? That’s extremely dangerous and the driver will definitely spend a nice stint in jail.



    Three minute headway, really? That’s next to freaking impossible because everyone else in this city would want three minute headways on their metro lines, and you know what that equals to? One little delay in the subway screws everything up because all the lines converge on it.



    I wasn’t thinking on such a grand scale. Just a nine block tunnel from Kirkham to Santiago.



    I never said that “only” the local residents should have a say, but rather that they should have a larger say.

    If we’re going to have neighborhood meetings then we must regard their feedback as significant.



    No, it just means there are less of them.

    I’d listen more to a local resident who rarely attends such meeting than an “activist” who shows up at every meeting, with the same predictable shtick.



    Well, they may not have taken a bus if they were hypocrites. But they mostly don’t live in that neighborhood.



    It’s the wrong term. If someone opposes boarding islands that i not bigotry, but merely holding different values.

    Someone isn’t bad just for disagreeing with you



    Both are true – there are certainly passengers who board or leave oblivious to their surroundings.



    It’s almost universal to put the transit underground and leave cars on the surface. Boston tried the opposite and it didn’t work out well.



    But does the percentage increase?

    VAT is also reclaimable by many, as I understand it, while many classes of goods and services are VAT-free like food, healthcare etc



    Accountability can be achieved without invasions of privacy



    It’s generally better to put transit underground and leave cars on the surface. Central subway is the model.

    “Big Digs” are out of fashion since Boston’s $20 billion project got less than stellar reviews.



    Transit First is not Transit Only.

    But it’s good to see you are happy with whatever the majority want even, presumably, when it does not favor your biases.

    A majority of local residents appear to oppose the plan for boarding islands and lane blockages for the L. We’re glad you agree the majority should prevail.



    That’s a project that might be more costly than the new bay bridge, when you count the sum total of economic losses due to construction costs.

    I can’t see how it pencils out.



    Perhaps there needs to be a survey conducted on board:
    1) Do you think this car stops too frequently?
    2) Do you think it’s unsafe when exiting without boarding islands?

    Frankly, whenever parking is moved within a square block, it should not be even brought up as an issue.



    Why must you post damn good ideas that I end up agreeing with?! In all seriousness, this should happen….19th ave is pathetically clogged with traffic and despite the 28R being MUNI’s best answer towards making 19th ave somewhat better(at the very least), there ain’t much else they can do…

    I’m glad most of the freeways that were planned for San Francisco during the mid 20th century ended in that historical “Freeway Revolt” but an underground highway on 19th ave between Irving/Lincoln Way in the north and the intersection of JuniperoSerra/19th ave in the south would have freed up 19th ave to be the bike/bus/ped friendly blvd you envisioned. Imagine that beautiful scene for a second..19th ave with no endless car traffic but instead a giant multi-use blvd and knowing San Francisco, it’d have a Europeanized look to it.

    Also, come to think of it, MUNI made a mistake when they made the 28 19th ave bus a bus line instead of a light rail line with dedicated right-of-way. Not JUST along 19th ave south to the Daly City BART station, but also thru its Golden Gate Park/Park Presidio/Golden Gate Bridge route all the way to its new terminal at Aquatic Park. With it following Lombard and then Van Ness to reach it all using its own right-of-way, which Lombard and Van Ness could easily accomadate. A 28 19th ave light rail streetcar line with an entire dedicated right-of-way(also having prioritized traffic signals along its entire route) would easily and obviously be worlds better than this hellaciously slow 28 19th ave local line that MUNI riders are sadly stuck with…



    Why not? Toll roads are all the thing in SoCal.


    Mario Tanev

    Nope. Not part of the problem. All injuries are due to drivers illegally passing a stopped train.



    I’m all for it if it’s a toll road. $10 per



    I think the State should underground 19th Avenue. The tunnels would carry the Marin-to-San-Mateo traffic, and the surface could be redesigned into a ped and bike friendly boulevard. Local buses could go on top, express buses below.



    Read the thread. I never said anything about anyone other than defending cgolis.



    Are you from this planet, I mean, city?

    “The L-Taraval should operate on a 3-minute headway and Taraval should otherwise be closed to cars.”

    “There is no reason that Muni can’t run a 3-minute headway other than
    managerial stupidity and pigheadedness on the part of motorists.”

    These comments made my day. Thank you. First of all, don’t blame motorists for MUNI not being able to run trains every 3 minutes. The fault lies with the design of the rail network which shares and contributes to all the problems associated with running on a street. Second, there is not enough demand for 3-minute headways even if the system could operate at that interval. Most outbound trains are empty during the morning rush (reverse at night). Ride it some time and see for yourself before pushing to turn an entire fog and windswept street into a car-free playground.



    How Robert Moses of you.