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    Thanks for showing everyone how absolutely out of touch you are, Sebra.



    I thought removing 1 or 2 stops in this area was going to be less controversial than this given its logicalness (word?). As @disqus_BqcFgCmZDL:disqus noted, the Grove & Laguna stop is ridic, but speaking just to the Panhandle, perhaps SFMTA had some overreach with stop removal, ahem, consolidation, proposals, but does that now mean we get none??



    Americans are a notoriously impatient lot, and folks who are used to having their car ready at a moment’s notice at all hours are not going to be happy if the car takes 15 or more minutes to arrive at the person’s location.

    Americans – or 50 year old Americans? 20 year olds are giving up owning a TELEVISION for crying out loud.



    It’s a truly anachronistic idea that seems ridiculous now. Think about how much spectacular waterfront in SF is blocked by a road (Embarcadero). And this transcends SF: nearly every big city’s waterfront is spoiled by giving it over to automobiles. And just look at Route 1 along the Pacific coast. For most of the whole length of CA, the slammed a damn highway right through some of the planet’s most spectacular scenery. Sure, it’s reasonable that small stretches should be given over to the car, but nearly the whole coast?!



    The key word is “summon”—how far does the car have to come to pick up an “intending passenger”? Americans are a notoriously impatient lot, and folks who are used to having their car ready at a moment’s notice at all hours are not going to be happy if the car takes 15 or more minutes to arrive at the person’s location. On the other hand, self-driving cars would presumably spell the end of car chases, which would be a blessing for everyone except the local TV stations on slow news nights.


    Christopher Childs

    Most cyclists have a very strong incentive to support a full spectrum of transportation options. Realistically, riding my bicycle is not the most reliable or flexible choice for me to make. People driving or taking the bus have made a similar assessment, and since there’s no way I’m driving my car downtown every day, I’m interested in good MUNI service.



    The owner also demanded a big NEXTMUNI sign be placed so that drive up customers would know how much time they could idle in the bus stop :)



    What’s the chance that having that great big seldom used clear curb out in front of your coffee shop is what’s important? Great place to stash your car for “just a minute” while you get your coffee. And hey, the MUNI drivers stop in the street if the bus zone is full so no big deal.



    I’m not big on cars or bikes on the sidewalks. Pedestrians should always be of primary concern.



    You just explained why cyclists care. Because when we can’t ride anymore – we’ll take MUNI. You, however, do not care about MUNI because they can have your car keys when they pry them out of your cold dead hands.



    “Perhaps one ought to have to swipe a drivers license to start a car and take responsibility for what’s done with it.

    I was thinking about this the other night in terms of a massive fleet of self driving cars that you summon and which then take you to your destination. No stolen cars. No car insurance. No personal garages for cars. No curb cuts. No airbags. No….etc…

    I’m a died in the wool mass transit guy but I’m starting to come around. We must unlearn what we have learned.

    Then again, it would also mean a massive reduction in police force including the dismantling of the California Highway Patrol. So the Police Unions will never let it happen.





    So MUNI has therefore an obligation to keep a busy bus lane crawling at low speeds just to guarantee his store foot traffic?

    This reminds me of people getting bitter upon alternative school calendar changes because it denies local business cheap student workpool for some summer event.



    SWITRS reports from 2005-2013 show that bicyclists were at fault 57% of the time for accidents on Marina Blvd.


    Upright Biker

    I think cyclists care very much about Muni service, even if the younger ones don’t utilize it much yet. But why do you bring cyclists into the picture? This is about bus stops and headways, not someone’s deathless obsession for parking and against cycling.


    Michael Smith

    I’m rather disappointed that my fellow transit advocates haven’t appreciated the details of this issue. Yes, stop consolidations are a good thing when stops are too closely spaced. Yes, this will piss off some people who want to keep their transit stop. But when correctly done, it is a win for the community and should be done.

    But just exactly which stops should be removed??

    Somehow folks failed to see that this isn’t about removing just this one stop, doubling the space between stops. That would of course be a good thing. And there are specific guidelines for stop spacing. The old guideline was 800′-1000′ per stop. The new, and arguably better SFMTA guideline for speeding up Muni is 900′-1400′ feed. If you remove just the Central Ave stop you get a stop spacing of 975′, which is actually within both guidelines. But if you remove both the Lyon and Central stops then the space between stops is tripled, not doubled, to 1450′, which is above both guidelines. Now you have a problem.

    There is no question that at least one of the the Lyon or Central stops should be removed (along with other such closely spaced stops). But the discussion completely changes when the SFMTA is proposing to go beyond their well thought out guidelines for walking distance.

    And I certainly hope the SFMTA realizes they are far better off removing the stop at Grove and Laguna, which has an absurd spacing of 265′ on level ground.

    And even better yet, change the routing of the inbound 21 to stay on Hayes till Polk. This would shave 2 turns plus 2 blocks off of the trip and would avoid the congestion and many street closures at Grove and Polk. Plus the support poles for the overhead trolley wires are already in place. All they would have to do is change Hayes to a 2-way street between Van Ness and Polk (as was already done for several other blocks of Hayes) and put up the power wires.


    sebra leaves

    Since when do cyclists care about Muni service? Whether you believe it or not, your riding days are limited. Watch your elderly family members for a glimpse at your future and show a little sympathy for others every now and then.


    Richard Mlynarik

    If that were the case, it would be far from the first or last time it has happened.


    Richard Mlynarik

    They should rename the 21L the 21RXXX, issue a bunch of press releases, up staff overheads and consultant hourlies, personally give Reskin an even more deliciously large slice of the city budget and retirement funds, get rid of parking meters altogether, and then demand MOAR SALES TAX MONEE MOAR MOAR FOR MUNI.

    Always remember: if you don’t want more money for Muni and you don’t think Muni is TEPping FORWARDing into the Rapid future you’re clearly a pawn of Koch Brothers.



    I don’t think we are communicating very well. You said you bicycle every day in SOMA and FiDi and almost never have any issue with cars. I cycle every day in The Mission and SOMA and have an issue almost every day, usually with someone double parked in the bike lane. Perhaps this seems insignificant to you, but it definitely makes cycling feel less safe and discourages people from cycling in general.

    I don’t have any particular problem with these particular parking places and agree that the SFBC could put its time and attention to more urgent issues.

    I have only cycled this route a few dozen times but it is one of the easiest and safest in The City.



    I didn’t say that I don’t think that’s a big I deal. Getting doored sucks and definitely counts. I really don’t see why this is germane to the topic though. That happened on Market Street at 5th. We are talking about Marina Green where I haven’t been able to find a single incident of bike and car collisions in any data and I’ve managed to find data for three of the last five years. what’s being discussed here is whether it’s worth killing off the marina green parking spaces in the interest of bike safety issues. I argue no, because there is not a safety issue.


    Bike Pretty

    Debunked for areas that are making an effort to provide safe and sustainable transportation. The idea is that the roads shouldn’t only be for people who are comfortable taking the lane and mixing with large bus and car traffic. Because not very many people are willing to do that, as you yourself point out. Can you see how that limits who uses bike lanes and by extension who has more transportation options?

    You can read more about it here:

    Perhaps the biker in the video agrees that it would have been better to go around. But she also clearly asks a vehicle operator not to stop in the bike lane. So how can infrastructure make a difference in that scenario?



    You and I have a different definition of what “having an issue with a car” means. Being doored most definitely counts in my book.


    Ziggy Tomcich

    The problem is that most drivers aren’t cited when they kill or injure pedestrians or cyclists even when there’s clear video evidence proving the driver was at fault. The driver who ran a red light and killed cyclist Charles Vinson last March still hasn’t been cited despite witnesses. The truck driver who killed Amalie on her bike last year had to be taken to civil court by her family because the city refused to cite the truck driver, despite video evidence. While there are technically rules on the books against drivers killing people, in reality drivers get away with it all the time because most police officers refuse to issue a citation and most prosecutors refuse to take cyclist killers to trial.


    Ziggy Tomcich

    There’s nothing “outrageous” about what Ms. Brinkman said. She is a tireless advocate on the SFMTA board who’s trying to make biking safer in San Francisco but encounters resistance at every turn from the perception the cycling in this city is a lawless extreme sport for young men. I totally agree with what she said. We need more bicycle infrastructure to make biking safer and less intimidating. I know many people who want to bike in this city but are afraid to because right now it’s too dangerous.


    Ziggy Tomcich

    Brinkman is one of the few cycling advocates on the SFMTA board, and she’s the driving force behind much of the bicycle improvements in this city. Brinkman is right. Biking in San Francisco is considered an extreme sport and is dominated by younger men who ride aggressively. While there are exceptions to this, this is the perception out there and it’s why Brinkman encounters resistance every time they try to improve bicycle infrastructure in this city. At every single hearing for Polk Street improvements, opponents all spoke out about reckless bicycles running red lights and stop signs. So why do you think convincing more middle age women to bike would be a bad thing? Why do you think Brinkman should be removed for advocating this?


    Ziggy Tomcich

    The problem with that is most drivers never receive a citation when they kill a cyclist or pedestrian, even when there’s video evidence and witnesses proving the driver was at fault. There needs to be consequences for those who drive and ride recklessly.


    Ziggy Tomcich

    The problem with treating this cyclist as a driver is that most drivers get away without even a citation when they kill pedestrians. If we’re ever going to have safer streets, there needs to be real consequences for people who behave dangerously. We also need smarter intersection designs that don’t encourage cyclists to blow through red lights, especially along the Embarcadero. Still even with our car-centric intersections, it’s never worth saving a few seconds by blowing through red lights because doing so removes all margin for error and none of us are perfect riders. Ride safe and take a little more time to treat others the same way you want to be treated. RIP Cherney.



    In addition, Ed Lee of course didn’t sign on, he doesn’t need too, he has rapid transit coming every three minutes in his neighborhood. The ones least likely to ride Muni are the spoiled ones living on the BART line. As if Lee is seriously going to walk past Glen Park BART and wait on that little sad island in the middle of the freeway for the J-Church, coming every 10 minutes at rush hour.



    Riding Muni for twenty-two days should be easy, considering the time it takes for the J and N trains to go into the subway from Duboce is about a week. Then knock off another week by riding the 38 Geary through Union Square, and finish the final week by either going snails crawl through Chinatown on the 30/45, or camping out in the train right before the bottle-necked West Portal as SFMTA figures out where the driver is for the waiting LRV.



    Then it should create a 21L, and decrease service on the former two.


    Golden Gate Shark

    then they claim they were carjacked


    Marven Norman

    Debunked for…? No one is saying to stop building bike lanes, just that there are plenty instances where they don’t work. Like the one seen here. It’s pretty clear from the video that this particular bike lane is a classic example of just about everything that can go wrong with a bike lane. Even the guy in the video agrees that going around by taking the lane probably would’ve been better.



    replace the bus with a cable car that moves slowly enough that people can climb on and off at any point, and it never has to stop



    Honestly no. Doored once on market at 5th. Had another fail to signal a right turn in civic center right in front of me. Those are the only major problems I’ve had.



    I think his name is Alan Cavey.



    I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but if you run someone over and manage to get away, it seems like ditching your vehicle and reporting it stolen is an easy way to escape the consequences. Perhaps one ought to have to swipe a drivers license to start a car and take responsibility for what’s done with it.



    You bicycle daily through SOMA and have never had an issue with a car? I don’t believe you.



    Another example of how SFMTA can’t do what they need to do to improve the reliability and efficiency of Muni service and cave into the usual BS and nonsense. One can imagine why we can’t get anything done or move forward with improvements as small as this one or other bigger improvements.

    It’s ridiculous to have bus stops at four consecutive blocks, it unnecessarily slows down the service. SFMTA should have stood firm and remove the two bus stops at Hayes St & Central Ave and the other at Hayes St & Lyon St. That area is mostly flat and removing them would in my opinion have little to no adverse impact to the area being the people who live there and the businesses that set shop there. It would only serve to make the service faster and more attractive.



    I’m all for supporting small and local business, but having a bus stop in front of your shop should not be a guarantee, and in the city, you cant keep everything the same, you have to allow for change. You cant subsidize a single store using muni patrons, and MUNI funds. We need to move MUNI FORWARD, and do what needs to be done to improve our transit services. Moving a stop a block away will not instantly destroy a business. If you offer quality service, people will continue to come. (But maybe if MUNI really becomes faster and more reliable, people may not have time for that cup of coffee.) As an alternative, maybe it’s time to add a parklet, or a bike corral to really set your business apart. It seems like a great opportunity for change.


    Greg Costikyan

    As a NYer who lived in SF for 3 years, I was astonished at how close the bus stops are together. Not that buses in NY run quickly, but that’s more a matter of traffic than the number of stops. NY bus stops are typically 2-3 blocks away, but NY blocks are larger than SF ones. In some cases, SF’s approach is justified; e.g., in an area with steep hills, walking a distance can be onerous so, sure, space the bus stops closely. In other areas, an eighth to a quarter mile walk (2 1/2 to 5 minutes for most people) is entirely reasonable. And if the net result is a quicker transit for most people, the extra steps are more than justified. Space out the stops. (I used to take the 21 to work from Alamo Square to Market, changing for another bus to SOMA on occasion. It would take me about 45 minutes by bus — and about 45 minutes to walk. That’s nuts. It took me about 20 minutes by bike, so you can guess what I normally did.)



    Good thing we have all the good citizens of San Francisco to help SFPD out when they’re having trouble gathering information.


    Andy Chow

    Yesterday on Mission Street there were a lot of buses still show the 14L. Was it that the operators got confused or that the operators did it not to confuse the riders?



    I’m sure there’s a lot of businesses with owners who contribute to their neighborhoods. If they all get a stop in front, we can’t run bus service as efficiently as we should.



    I applaud the MTA on this decision. Central Coffee has been at this location for over 20 years, and Ali lives close enough to walk. He contributes to the neighborhood in many ways, including food and coffee donations for neighborhood events. These are the types of merchants we want to remain and add to the vibrancy of a neighborhood.



    To speed up the 21, SFMTA should create a 21-R that would skip stops. Then, reduce service on the 21 and increase service on the 21-R.


    Andy Chow

    If that area has a lot of Google buses, etc, let them use that stop and have Muni skip it.



    If they really can’t remove the stops at Central, why don’t they just get rid of both stops at Lyon to make up for that?


    Thomas Rogers

    As Tom Radulovich notes, I guess the fact that a merchant thinks transit riders are a good thing for business is at least a nice contrast to the Polk Street nonsense.



    Amateur hour. Clearly neither Breed nor the cafe owner actually ride the bus.