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  1.  

    RichLL

    Maybe not, but if all Eric has is an obscene rant, then it’s fair to assume that he has no counter-argument

  2.  

    RichLL

    If the intent was to turn Stockton Street into a public plaza at the end, then I think someone would have a citation for that. The assumption was that as much as possible, the streets would revert to how they were before construction.

    It is YOU that needs a citation to prove we agreed to a car-free Stockton,

  3.  

    RichLL

    Nonsense. If you are going to most of the city then you are going to change to either another bus or a streetcar anyway. So better to change earlier and get on a faster train.

    The Central Subway adds a second dimension to the streetcar network and makes it a network rather than a line. Many people will get on or off at the end of the lines, and take buses as necessary. The result should be that we can reduce the buses through the Stockton tunnel and other downtown bottlenecks.

  4.  

    murphstahoe

    We agreed to out up with 5 years of Stockton being closed with the proviso that we get it back again at the end.

    I don’t believe this. Do you have a citation?

    Also who is “we”? Do you live in Chinatown? Union Square? Otherwise, your voice doesn’t really matter, does it?

  5.  

    RichLL

    Wait, you want the only vehicles in the Stockton tunnel to be buses? So once every ten or so minutes there would be a vehicle in the tunnel? I am fairly sure that NOBODY agreed to that when the CS was approved.

    More generally the point of the CS s surely no different than the point of undergrounding transit everywhere in the city, and every other city. It’s much more efficient to ut mass transit underground, freeing the streets up for both vehicles and people.!

    So you don’t go to great trouble and expense to put transit underground and then also ask to ban cars from the streets abive

  6.  

    murphstahoe

    Laughable. The Central Subway station is 9 stories underground. Unless someone is going all the way to Bayview, it’s a net time loss.

  7.  

    murphstahoe

    The point of the Central Subway is to pacify Rose Pak

  8.  

    murphstahoe

    If you can’t rebut him, clearly you are wrong!

  9.  

    RichLL

    That “And” word there is crucial. It performs as a conjunction, enabling one point to be added to another.

    So in this case it was stated that in ChinaTown both residents oppose the street closure AND merchants do as well.

  10.  

    murphstahoe

    Word.

    I think that bus only exists for people getting off cruise ships.

  11.  

    RichLL

    Both sides have “facts”. But the question of values does arise as well.

  12.  

    RichLL

    I was providing some background and context as to the motives and intentions of some advocates of this street closure. Whether you specifically fall into this category or not doesn’t matter – there are some anti-car zealots here who are motivated only be their hatred,

  13.  

    RichLL

    It was a package deal that we the people effectively accepted. We agreed to out up with 5 years of Stockton being closed with the proviso that we get it back again at the end.

    Now you want to change the deal.

    If you want a closed Stockton that is a new deal which we the people, and particularly the local people, need to agree. You seem to want to just railroad this through without debate or approval.

  14.  

    gneiss

    Wait, you said the people who should vote on this are the local residents, who have the lowest car ownership of anyone in the city. Why are you bringing up a city wide statistic then?

  15.  

    gneiss

    It’s not buses that clog up streets, it’s cars and trucks. If we only had buses on Stockton there’d be no need to build the Central Subway. The point of the Central Subway is to have additional capacity for people to get in and out of Chinatown using public transit which is woefully slowed down by the car and truck traffic.

  16.  

    tungwaiyip

    “Right now these buses take a long and inefficient detour”

    Do you finally acknowledge transit riders suffered a great deal from the closure?

    The same follows for cars and trucks. There is no short detour.

  17.  

    Ted King

    Here’s a better combination for a run to Sacto.:

    BART to either Richmond or the Oakland Coliseum and transfer to a Capitol Corridor train for the leg to Sacto.

    http://www.capitolcorridor.org/route-map/

  18.  

    roymeo

    it’s possible my aim is bad:
    Post starts: “I said residents rather than merchants.”
    And then says: “And evidently ChinaTown merchants oppose this closure as well as the residents.”

  19.  

    Fultonian

    I see. So its facts against feelings.

  20.  

    Fultonian

    The plan would allow 30, 45, and 8 buses through Stockton, so they would be speeded up. Right now these buses take a long and inefficient detour – I was wondering if you’re saying cars and trucks leaving Chinatown take the same way or if they take alternate routes.

  21.  

    Fultonian

    I never said any of this – I just want to know what the delay is now compared to what tungwayip thinks it will be after the street is reconnected to 4th.

  22.  

    Fultonian

    Who’s the “you” that you’ve created? The people that conceived of Central Subway are largely a different group than those who are interested in a ped mall. From articles, it sounds like Rose Pak & Chinatown interests pushed for the Central Subway, now Union Square business interests are pushing for a permanent Winter Walk. In this case the “you” is a pretty big and disparate group.

  23.  

    MrEricSir

    Dude, it’s time to give it a fucking rest — you’re not required to reply to every single comment on here.

  24.  

    RichLL

    tungwaiyip, something I learned a long time ago is that the more fervent anti-car activists here do not see delay and congestion of vehicles, and the frustration and suffering of drivers, as a problem at all, but rather as a good thing.

    They believe that if things can be made very bad on the streets of the city, then drivers will magically “give up” on their cars, go away somewhere, and then all the city streets will be filled with rosy-faced people with flowers in their hair, wearing sandals and singing kumbayah.

    They feel no regret about traffic congestion and frustration. That actually seek that as a goal of their direct action to subvert the will of the majority. We’re dealing with a small but very aggressive and determined minority of people who quite simply see drivers as devils

  25.  

    tungwaiyip

    And you are not seeing a link between the street closure and extra delay! I’m speechless.

  26.  

    RichLL

    That’s the mistake you guys always make. Rather than ask for modest achievable changes, you go overboard with some vast untenable and unattainable scheme that would naturally encounter massive opposition, and so you fail.

    The community is willing to make odd concessions here and there. But the community is not interested in supporting a vast re-design and re-engineering of vast neighborhoods.

    70% to 80% of SF households have at least one car, You need to work with them, not treat them all like the Anti-Christ.

  27.  

    tungwaiyip

    It is not “claiming hardship”. The suffering is significant and obvious. Yet you act skeptical and refuse to acknowledge other people’s suffering. If you have the slightness interest to know find out how bad it really is, sit on a south bound 30 for once. I will quantify it for you. It takes about half the time to walk south of Market Street than on a 30.

  28.  

    RichLL

    Yeah, I’ve been to Boulder. Typically college town, nice people, mostly white and middle-class, like a lot of towns.

    The point with the closure, as I said to Fultonian, is that it was never a “trial” for a car-free street. It was a temporary closure and we all agreed to it because we knew it was temporary.

    And now you’re trying a bait-and-switcheroo.

    Powell may be a human cesspool but you have a car-free street in that immediate area. Stockton is a vital traffic artery, connecting with one of SF’s very few road tunnels, and providing vital access from the NW of the city to south of Market and the freeways.

    It should stay and the people who live there agree, if you care about them

  29.  

    RichLL

    I still think it’s dishonest. Basically you get me to agree to a 5-year blockage of Stockton on the understanding that it will then revert.

    Then you say “Oh, hey, look, I really like it with no cars so we’ll just go back on our word and make it permanent”

    Not a honorable way to do business. Put Stockton street back as was, as we all agreed, and then we can debate alternatives.

    And as for the “information received” it cuts both ways. Some like it and some do not.

  30.  

    murphstahoe

    I take it you’ve never been to Boulder. The Pearl Street Mall has always had a subset of Haight style kids, and that was before they legalized the ganja.

    I don’t see the people of the Haight saying that the street kids there are “OK” because they are white. But they deal with it.

    And as noted – this closure has already occurred two years in a row, and the sky didn’t fall.

  31.  

    Fultonian

    Wait, so you’re saying that once a plan is set 5+ years ago, that there’s no changing it? The difference here is that the Winter Walk happened and it was a huge success. It showed people what they could have on a permanent basis. By your logic, there’s no room for new information to change the discussion. When the Central Subway plans were conceived, no one was even thinking about a Winter Walk.

    There’s no ‘bait and switch’ – Right now it is still a temporary closure – you’re saying there’s no justification to consider a permanent closure in light of information we’ve gathered on shopping behavior or the effects of the detour.

  32.  

    RichLL

    Since you are the one proposing to change things, then it is you who needs evidence to support the lack of suffering from the proposal. Those who oppose it do not need “evidence”. They just need to express their preference and then have you convince them that they should change their mind.

    The burden of proof should always be on those who seek the change.

  33.  

    RichLL

    For whatever reason the city has not done a good job of building parking garages in ChinaTown (and also North Beach). There is the Portsmouth Square parking garage but I cannot think of another one that has scale.

    However that could be addressed much more easily than Fultonian’s dream of somehow controlling property values and rents.

    I cannot comment on your allegations of placard abuse but in any event the best way of preventing illegal parking is to make parking easier, and not to punish those who are frustrated enough to skirt the rules.

  34.  

    Fultonian

    My point is anyone can claim hardship. It’s as easy as writing “people are suffering.” I’m not saying that things are fine for Chinatown businesses. I’m not seeing a link between the street closure and extra delay or loss of business. I haven’t seen any evidence connecting these things.

  35.  

    RichLL

    If you want to blame someone for that start with Willie Brown and his “streetcar to nowhere” simply to placate the black community in the south-east of the city.

    Once that was done it was inevitable that the much stronger Asian lobby would demand their own “streetcar to nowhere”.

  36.  

    RichLL

    Boulder – 88% white. Healdsburg – 74% white. I’m seeing a pattern to your cherry-picking.

    It’s easy to put pedestrian malls in mostly-white college towns and affluent enclaves and see no social problems. Try the same thing in a mixed urban area and a very different outcome ensues. Just look at the mess that is the plaza at Castro/Market/17th and that is one of the more affluent parts of the city.

    Sorry but Mark is correct – Powell Street is a cesspit once you look beyond the ritzy stores and hotels.

  37.  

    RichLL

    Typically people switch from car or bus at the ends of rail lines. So I’d expect anyone taking a 30 from Marina will hop off at the end of the Central Subway line to get to the rest of the city.

    I fail to see the point of building CS if the idea is not to reduce the number of buses clogging up the streets.

  38.  

    RichLL

    Market Street is a pretty big disrupter there, and I think folks south of Market are less affected. Otherwise you could make the argument to draw the line anywhere.

    The area in question is surely the length of Stockton from Market to Broadway, and say a block either side of it.

    And again, this isn’t just about car ownership but about the net beneficiaries of having an efficient north-south route through those hills and onto Market. If the pedestrians get Powell then why can’t the cars have Stockton?

  39.  

    RichLL

    I don’t think it is a question of “political games”. the opposition to closing Stockton Street is sincere and heartfelt.

    And the default surely be no change. The “meddling” would be the change, and if there is significant local opposition to a proposal like this then it should be rejected. As stated, enlarging the car-free section of Powell makes more sense and it a lot less disruptive.

  40.  

    RichLL

    Fultonian, I think was is a little distasteful and disingenuous in your argument is the implied “bait and switch” going on here.

    It is one thing to say “we’re going to inconvenience you for 5 years but then everything will be put back the way it was”. It is quite another thing to say after 5 years “Hey, you’ve totally gotten used to the delays and detours so why not make it permanent?”

    So tungwaiyip has a point here. We were told this was a temporary obstruction and that should be honored

  41.  

    tungwaiyip

    People are suffering. And your attitude is to deny their suffering and ask them to quantify it? I know it is a waste of time to post on streetblog SF.

  42.  

    murphstahoe

    In 20 years downtown SF will be 3x the size – and include the current station.

  43.  

    murphstahoe

    Extra vehicle traffic is only meaningful it it stops and parks. Parking is extremely difficult in Chinatown due to rampant placard abuse.

  44.  

    murphstahoe

  45.  

    Fultonian

    I’m asking you to quantify the delay. What is the difference between what they have been doing for the past five years, and what you expect will happen when construction ends? It seems that you expect that things will be better when the construction ends, and that people are waiting for this to happen. What is the delay right now, and what do you think it would be when the construction is over?

  46.  

    tungwaiyip

    What inconvenience? You ask this question? Are you mocking the thousand of people who suffer from detour and delay from the construction everyday?

  47.  

    Fultonian

    I’m curious about this. What is the inconvenience? People leaving Chinatown are not using Stockton – so they are taking another route? What route? Why is that route worse? And most importantly, what do you expect to happen when the construction is finished? Do you think Stockton will be a clear, fast route to the freeway? If so, what makes you think that it wouldn’t jam up just like Montgomery, Battery, Mason, and Hyde?

  48.  

    tungwaiyip

    Stockton is temporary closed for construction. It is very inconvenient for people affected, from cars, trucks to transit. The inconvenience is expected to end after the construction is finished.

  49.  

    Mark

    Closing off 2 blocks doesn’t just affect the immediate area around those blocks. Vehicles have to go somewhere. They don’t magically disappear. If people are so gung ho about reducing private auto traffic in the city then they should be pushing for a real transit system to move them around.

  50.  

    Mark

    Doubtful that a lot more people will be transferring to the Powell St/Union Square station (walk the 2 block passageway to Powell St. station) who don’t already transfer at either Powell (walk the 2 surface blocks) or Montgomery on these lines.