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  1.  

    JB

    The woman ticketed at the red zone originally posted the story to Reddit – which is where Examiner probably picked it up. What the article does not include is that the woman said she left the vehicle parked for five days during which the curb was painted.

    No parking signs may have been up 72 hours prior to painting since it is unlawful to leave a vehicle parked for more than that.

  2.  

    Mark

    Mostly opposition based on purely selfish reasons and petty whining like “Now I have to walk an extra block” and “No one is going to shop at my store anymore because there isn’t a metered space directly in front.” WAAAAAH! If the success of your business rests on a few parking spaces then you really need to revisit your business model.

    No one is surprised that 2/3 of the people at the meeting opposed the changes. That’s usually what happens at community meetings. You can be guaranteed that if someone who opposed the boarding islands was hit, or knew someone who was hit, by a vehicle getting on/off the train would be first in line to complain.

    The real problem isn’t about safety, preserving parking or improving transit. It’s about people being self-centered with their heads stuck in the past.

  3.  

    Mark

    Agreed. In fact, there really shouldn’t be a stop at 22nd AND 23rd OB. But, they had to put the ramp somewhere and removing a couple parking spaces next to the park versus up at 22nd was probably the trade off for the OB stop not being at 24th.

  4.  

    RichLL

    Scientific studies indicate that you could be up to ten times safer if you did. Here:

    “Switching from dark clothing to a white vest markedly improved visibility. Drivers then detected pedestrians on the right at about 300 feet and pedestrians on the left at about 200 feet. Theoretically, the vest reduces the number of accidents to 3% right and 9% left, or an improvement by a factor of 10”

    http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/pedestrian.html

    You can always remove the high-vis item upon safely arriving at your awards dinner.

  5.  

    RichLL

    So elected representatives should ignore those who elect them? That doesn’t sound like a recipe for further electoral success.

    The pesky thing about democracy is that it doesn’t always give you the result you prefer.

  6.  

    RichLL

    Like I said, I was taught back in high school to wear something visible at night. Here’s a rather ghoulish child safety video on the same theme:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0c75VKvcsY

  7.  

    Scott

    You have clearly never attempted this during a game. You take your life in your hands. Gridlocked traffic, mostly gigantic buses, all of it honking and attempting to ram themselves into each other and any idiotic cyclists stupid enough to attempt this grim gauntlet.

    I tried it once, got hit twice (I’m OK and my bike is OK, there was some damage to the bus and Escalade that hit me LOL) and I vowed NEVER AGAIN.

    49ers, you make untold millions from this stadium. Please keep your promise to do what it takes to keep the trail open. It is a tiny drop in the bucket of your profit, but it would mean the world to the poor souls who live and work nearby.

  8.  

    SuperQ

    I saw one complaint about a stop being removed at 24th ave. Mainly because they bought a house there. Yet, there’s already a stop with a boarding island at 23rd, and another stop at 26th. These are stops within a few hundred feet of each other, which is utterly crazy for a light rail system.

  9.  

    Chris J.

    So you’re suggesting that it’s “prudent advice” for anyone going out at night to wear something bright and reflective. It seems absurd to me to ask or expect people to have to do that to be safe at night. I’ve never heard of that recommendation, and no one I know wears bright or reflective clothes at night simply to walk around.

  10.  

    njudah

    It’s amazing how terrified supervisors are of their own constituents, esp those on the west side. wtf?

  11.  

    RichLL

    So wait, what you are saying is that the majority of those who showed up to oppose these islands were actually a minority because otherwise the venue would have been bigger?

  12.  

    neroden

    Loading zones are VERY VERY IMPORTANT. New York City doesn’t have enough of them. Apparently this is becoming a problem in SF as well.

  13.  

    neroden

    That’s certainly a minority of local residents.

    When a majority of local residents care enough to come to a meeting to oppose something, the meeting invariably has to be moved to a much larger room. (They never expect very many people to care either way.)

  14.  

    Donovan Lacy

    Rich,

    You had stated that cyclist “already have a disproportionately large amount of road resources relative to their numbers,” but excluded the fairly large protion of the roadway that is being used by drivers to park their vehicles.

    I was trying to understand what other portions of the roadway besides where cars are now parking you intended to exclude in your analysis. Assuming you are confining your focus to SF, do you intend to exclude the freeways and state highways in SF that cyclists are excluded from using, including US-101, I-280 and I-80?

    I am not a big fan of riding on State Highways and Freeways, but since you referenced dedicated bike lanes earlier in this thread, I could see carving out ~10′ of space for a seperated bi-directional bike lane on one side of the highway shoulder with a physical barrier and a nice vegetative buffer.

  15.  

    RichLL

    Donovan, my understanding was that we were talking about SF, where cycling has about a 3% share.

    If you wish to extend the discussion to the Bay Area or, further, to the entire State, then I suspect that reduces to 1% or less.

    That said, I have no personal objection to cycling being allowed on freeways, but I cannot imagine that would prove to be popular.

  16.  

    Donovan Lacy

    RichLL,

    There are roughly 4,000 miles of freeway in the state of California. Would you argue that these should not be considered “road areas that are available for movement?

    I ask the question, because cyclists are excluded from roughly 3,000 of those miles, and unless we exclude them, your argument regarding the ratio of usable road space dedicated for cycling is going to be well below the 3% that you identified for cycling modal share.

  17.  

    Akit

    A lot of times, the city and SFMTA will do major safety improvements after a pedestrian gets killed on our streets. There’s many examples:

    47th Avenue and Fulton: Used to be a two way stop with those on Fulton going as fast as 35 without stopping thru intersection. I advocated to the city to change to 4-way stop, but they wrote back to me saying it would “delay Muni.” It wasn’t until one day, a pedestrian was hit and killed, they finally put in 4-way stop, and now there’s a signal in place.

    Sunset Boulevard and Yorba (near Sloat overpass): Pedestrian killed by a car. That crosswalk was dangerous as hell, even with the flashing lights telling people there’s a pedestrian wanting to cross. Now there’s a traffic signal, more traffic signals along Sunset, and lowering the speed limit.

    Sloat and Forest View: A Lowell High School student was hit and killed by a DUI driver. Everybody knew crossing Sloat was dangerous, and the city and state (since it’s highway 35) forked the money fast to put in a new crosswalk signal.

    For the Taraval project, I’m happy the SFMTA is shoving back at the anti project people. They are willing to be proactive instead of waiting for the next death.

  18.  

    Donovan Lacy

    Kristof,
    I think that is a great idea. I think it may also be worhtwhile to educate riders to the idea of not getting into an Uber / Lyft if they are in a bike lane. I have been guilty of this myself and moving forward will deduct stars on the rating at the end of my rides for exactly this type of activity. My understanding is that the TNC’s are very sensitive to rider ratings.

  19.  

    RichLL

    “the agency encounters enormous push back. It comes from competing agencies, local politicians, but, more often than not, from a loud minority of angry stakeholders”

    Roger, did we ever establish beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a “minority” of local residents who opposed these boarding islands?

    As I recall, even your own report at the time indicated that about 2/3 of the meeting opposed them.

  20.  

    Donovan Lacy

    Stuart,

    I may be wrong, but I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that this is the wrong forum for pointing out the flaws of the standard pro-car argument. Not to put words into anyone else’s mouth; I think what Murph and others are trying to say is that pointing out these flaws to this particular poster (RichLL) is an exercise in futility, as he will respond to any argument that you make, no matter how articulate and logical by changing the subject or creating a straw man and typically refuting facts with his feelings and opinions.

    I spent some time responding to his arguments and then decided to try the blocking technique. I have enjoyed your responses and assuming you have the energy, and at the risk of sounding contrary and a tad hypocritical, I encourage you to continue the debate.

  21.  

    RichLL

    Wait, Mario, there are many prudent safety precautions we can all take that are not enshrined in statutes. Assuming you had the same kind of road safety classes in high school that I did, then you were taught to “look both ways” before crossing a road.

    Is that a legal requirement? No. Does it make sense if you want to be safe? Absolutely.

    Laws tell you what you must do, Common sense tells you what you should do.

  22.  

    Mario Tanev

    This is one of those things like requiring bicycle helmets. People’s clothing is part of their identity, and having to wear something specific so you don’t get killed is an invalidation of their identity. People would rather start driving than suffering such indignities.

    Also, using a “reason” which is not legislated, nor proven to improve safety is very unfair. If it was a requirement to wear reflective clothing at night, it should have been a law. But it’s not, because such a law wouldn’t pass. Hence the onus is on the dangerous multi-ton vehicle driver to have proper lights and to pay attention.

  23.  

    farazs

    > the practice is not intrinsically dangerous
    Well, neither is parking on crosswalks or sidewalks, as long as you don’t run over anyone in the process!

    There is nothing intrinsically dangerous about setting up a chess table and having a nice game on the middle of the cross-walk, as long as you enter the crosswalk in the walk phase. Once you’re there and not moving, its very predictable. Drivers can find their way around safely with some patience and ingenuity, right? Worst-case, they wait till check-mate! NBD

  24.  

    Stuart

    I don’t really see how ‘nobody post anything, because that way Rich won’t have anything to respond to’ leads to a comment section that has useful discussion.

    I thought pointing out the flaws in standard pro-car arguments was on-topic for streetsblog of all places, but apparently it gets me scolded and called a sock puppet (wat). Message received. If the existing community here wants to drive away people who agree with the philosophy of streetsblog just to try to starve Rich of people to reply to, so be it. I’ll go back to just reading, and you can go back to ignoring the fact the the comments section often has a bunch of unrefuted pro-car arguments that are designed to sound reasonable and convincing to any less informed readers that happen by.

  25.  

    RichLL

    VM, sorry but that is offensive. I comment here in in good faith and often contribute arguments that cannot be refuted.

    You are welcome to ignore me, of course, but commenting here just to insult an active and energetic contributor to this site is very negative and sad.

  26.  

    voltairesmistress

    You know that commenter is simply using this forum to troll and bait people. I wish we all would stop responding to these frivolous comments. I encourage you to ignore him, possibly by using the block function available at Disqus. Your blood pressure will thank you, as well as fellow readers.

  27.  

    RichLL

    I don’t think that car parking spaces should factor into discussions about the ratio of usable road space for different types off vehicles. I’m talking about road areas that are available for movement.

  28.  

    RichLL

    Fair enough, but there is still a legal question here. If I block a bike lane and, in response, you engage in a reckless passing maneuver and get hit by another vehicle, would I be held liable for the accident in any way? If I left the scene would that be “hit and run” even though I never hit you?

    Or to put it another way, can a fully stopped vehicle ever be deemed at fault for an accident?

  29.  

    RichLL

    I don’t think anyone is claiming that the pedestrian was 100% responsible for the accident just because he was difficult to see. Only that it may have been a contributory cause and that the jury in a civil case may award his estate less in the event of a lawsuit.

    Likewise, I don’t think a jury would take into account that a pedestrian wasn’t wearing a helmet, but they might if the victim was a cyclist who died from a head injury.

    Accidents usually happen because a few things all go wrong at the same time. Each factor should be considered and weighed.

  30.  

    StrixNoctis .

    It’s ridiculous that these days everyone but the drivers are getting blamed for collisions that all have one common denominator–motor vehicles. Drivers can do no wrong!

    What comes next is pedestrians getting blamed “for not having reflectors, lights and helmets.” I can see it now, “the two pedestrians who suffered life-threatening head injuries are to blame for not wearing helmets!” “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain/wheel.”

    Vision Zero will continue to be Zero Vision while the smoke & mirrors continue..

  31.  

    baklazhan

    This is why I always wear neon orange when I attend black-tie dinners.

  32.  

    thielges

    I stand corrected. The city’s document does state that the $3M ultimate plan is indeed a grade separated crossing where the creek and parking-stadium traffic intersect. This is the right approach and ideally nothing should be spent on an interim routing of dubious merit. And the Niners should fund this mitigation of the problem that the stadium created.

  33.  

    Jimbo

    SF can annex brisbane

  34.  

    Jimbo

    motorcycle

  35.  

    Stuart

    Of course, for a width comparison to map to resource allocation, you’d have to multiply by the fraction of streets that have bike lanes.

    transportchoice.org did a detailed look at resource allocation by area and mile in SF, and ten times as much public roadway space is allocated to parking individual vehicles than to than bike lanes. 10x is pretty close to the ratio of the modalities, so actually bike lanes aren’t disproportionate even if you ignore the reality that a lot of the “shared” road space is quite hostile to bikes.

  36.  

    Jimbo

    painting bike lanes seems like a simple and cheap solution when our city has much more pressing needs

  37.  

    Stuart

    > So if I block a bike lane […] there is a sense in which you would not have had that accident if I had not been there.

    Against all odds, we seem to have finally reached some level of agreement here. Now the key insight is that this is what people mean when they say it’s a safety issue.

    If, when you see someone say in a comment that blocking a bike lane is unsafe or a safety issue, you recognize that this is what they mean instead of trying to argue with them, you could save everyone a lot of arguing.

    Obviously we don’t all agree on the exact level of risk that constitutes “bad behavior”, but at least that would be an improvement.

  38.  

    Stuart

    The issue raised was what percentage of people are aware that having an Uber stopping in a bike lane to pick them up impacts cyclists. You don’t have to bike every single day to understand that.

    5% of people in the survey say biking is their primary mode of transit, so 3% is still the wrong number. I guess absent more detailed survey data, we’ll all have to reach our own conclusions about whether the remainder of the 17% consist entirely of people who drive their bike to GGP once a week and then bike in a car-free environment. That seems extremely unlikely to me.

  39.  

    Corvus Corax

    What thread? I blocked our dreadful troll some time ago, and now I have blocked the new poster who insists on endlessly replying to each of his posts. So now I see a long line of ‘this user is blocked’ interspersed with the occasional reply to the troll.

    The comments section has devolved to a nitpick session co-opted by what might well be one person with two identities(?) Now, instead of real comments, I mostly see quibbling replies. Sad. Maybe these two should just exchange email addresses and have their war of words apart, leave the comments section for those who want to comment on the actual article and not to just to score points or incite.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e3f8d4a071031466882858584894214fe1c2e8dd62ba551fe496b0a0c788ed72.jpg

  40.  

    RichLL

    I’m not advocating anything. I am explaining why things are the way they are, and why the allegedly illegal characterization of this behavior is not reflected in enforcement priorities.

    And as previously noted, the practice is not intrinsically dangerous. What is dangerous is taking risks to pass an obstruction.

    I do come here to listen and to learn. That said, it surprises me that the arguments made are not more persuasive and convincing.

  41.  

    joechoj

    No, you’re actually advocating for the practice, which is not only illegal and dangerous, but a terrible use of the public right of way. And you’re going on to tell a community invested in people-oriented transportation that they should accept further intrusion by cars into their hard-won space.

    If it feels like you’re bringing enlightenment to the conversation, then that’s a fair indication you’re looking to lecture and not willing to listen. So to you I say: you’ve convinced me, and thanks for the education.

  42.  

    RichLL

    A bike lane takes up to 20% of the width of a typical road, for a 3% modal share. One can reasonably argue that cyclists already have a disproportionately large amount of road resources relative to their numbers.

    I am not entrenched in any position. I am merely seeking to educate you and others why there appears to be de facto immunity for cars BRIEFLY stopping in a bike lane.

  43.  

    joechoj

    Make all the assumptions about me that you want; I’m not going to take the bait.

    Great, let the car-based problem affect cars. Bike lanes already take up less street space than a car lane; no serious policy-maker would entertain allowing cars to further constrain the space of the most space-efficient mode of transport.

    It’s already illegal for cars to park in bike lanes, and numbers of cyclists are only increasing, along with their ability to get laws enforced. I admire your tenacity, but I think you’ve become so entrenched in your position that you can’t see you’re fighting a battle that’s already been lost.

  44.  

    RichLL

    Again, I don’t agree. The risk component arises only when the obstructed cyclist or driver takes undue risks to pass. However one can reasonably argue that an obstruction increases the risk of drivers and cyclists choosing bad behavior, without being directly responsible for any adverse result from that.

    So if I block a bike lane and you recklessly pass me and get hit by another vehicle, I will not be held legally responsible for your accident, but there is a sense in which you would not have had that accident if I had not been there.

  45.  

    RichLL

    Murphy, 50% of your recent posts here have been about me. How does that kind of obsession help the discussion here?

  46.  

    RichLL

    No, my point was more that if a vehicle is going to stop (and every vehicle does from time to time) then it’s going to cause a problem.

    As a cyclist you’d rather inconvenience a non-cyclist. I can see why you’d say that but surely even you can see the bias in your position?

  47.  

    RichLL

    The issue raised before was daily commuting (along Valencia, mostly). An occasional cyclist who maybe rides in GGP on a sunny Sunday is not affected by this.

  48.  

    joechoj

    “…it causes vehicular congestion and risk.”

    So now that congestion and risk are taking place in a car lane, it’s not acceptable? When the topic was congestion and delay in the bike lane, you spent all day arguing the point that these are the acceptable downsides of city living.

    You’re arguing that – despite laws to the contrary – it’s fine for one travel mode to block lanes specifically set aside for a different travel mode. Good for you that you’ve found people to engage in that debate, I guess. It’s just a non-starter.

  49.  

    RichLL

    Wearing something bright or reflective at night was something I was taught in maybe second grade. Road workers often wear high-vis jackets. It’s prudent advice even if, as you suggest, it doesn’t mean that the pedestrian can be deemed at fault for the accident.

  50.  

    Stuart

    > the 97% who don’t use a bike regularly will have little understanding of the problem

    As an aside, since you keep using the 97% number: that’s the approximate percentage of *trips* that are taken on bikes. The percentage of people who bike at least once a week is 17% (per the SFMTA 2012 report that also has the ~3% number for trips). So the number you are actually looking for when you are talking about people who aren’t likely to understand issues affecting cyclists is at most 83%.

    I’m sure you aren’t deliberately trying to mislead people with bad statistics; now you know for the future.