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    Upright Biker

    Data to support your point of view?



    It is amazing they can’t put in some sidewalks and bike lanes. So much useful stuff, besides transit is in that 2 mile radius.


    David Marcus

    I don’t follow. Is there any standard design that combines stop signs with a roundabout? And if so, why?



    the mayor is one of Leland Yee’s minions, and Millbrae in general has always been at the forfront of shitty development, so don’t expect any miracles here. It’ll be more shit, expensive, and tax subsidized.





    I was trying to point out that the appeal to authority fallacy in your comment–just because someone has letters after his name doesn’t necessarily mean that what they say is true.



    Not exactly a scientific study, but a few years ago Mythbusters compared a 4-way stop with a roundabout and the results were pretty conclusively in favor of a roundabout:



    Well, I mostly meant the data and analysis presented by traffic engineers and planners. Debating priorities and methodology is fine (eg Does constructing an urban freeway justify bulldozing a neighborhood? Is a cars-only level of service metric appropriate?), but most critics don’t deal with that, they just ignore the data and come to their own conclusions anecdotally.



    Also false.
    Engineers, in general, respond to the demands of society. They are solvers of puzzles and not usually arbiters of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ in regards to the puzzles they are tasked to solve. The one caveat is, of course, to not endanger the users of their creations. The definition of endanger keeps changing.



    Mini-roundabouts are less common in the US, but frequently used in the UK. They are all truck apron. Mini-roundabouts examples:

    White Center, WA:
    Dimondale, MI:
    Missoula, MT: Toole and Scott:
    San Buenaventura, CA:
    Anacortes, WA:


    If constructed large enough to slow down auto traffic – like a minimal 8 or 9 foot outside lane, they might work well on a bike route. The bus would have to drive partially onto the apron.



    Neighborhood traffic circles are not modern roundabouts.

    Many people confuse other and older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. East coast rotaries, large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D’Triomphe, Dupont Circle), and small neighborhood traffic circles
    are not modern roundabouts. If you want to see the difference between a traffic circle, a rotary (UK roundabout) and a modern roundabout (UK continental roundabout), go to to see pictures. And here’s another site that shows the difference between an older rotary and a modern roundabout:



    False comparison. Traffic engineers are supposed to move traffic. They don’t necessarily care about say, the fact that paving over a neighborhood is bad.

    A roundabout here does not have a quality of life impact, a new freeway would have.



    If size is an issue, use a mini-roundabout:

    The idea is, you’re supposed to drive around the roundabout, not over it; but because it’s just a painted circle, large vehicles such as trucks can still get through the intersection, even if they have to put a wheel over the roundabout.


    SF Guest

    If your idea to have a traffic circle at Broadway and Columbus is intended to gridlock traffic it will undoubtedly succeed at that. Most if not the entire circle will be gridlocked from cars/buses making right turns waiting for pedestrians crossing the streets.


    Dark Soul

    Traffic Circles (Mid Road Blockage)



    Let’s not forget it was traffic engineers and planners who designed the freeways that were supposed to criss-cross San Francisco and residents of neighborhoods who stopped them.



    Well, perhaps. McAllister and Lyon looked smaller than those intersections to me, but it’s hard to gauge with Google Streetview.


    Bob Gunderson

    This is how you breakdown a street.



    The examples I gave look about the same size as McAllister and Lyon to me:



    This is more similar, but it’s not the same. The Beckett Street roundabout has a wide grass verge around it, and the buildings in the Napier Street roundabout appear to be some distance away from the circle. To accomplish the same thing on McAllister Street you would need to demolish the houses and apartment buildings on the corners to accommodate the roundabout, which would be too costly and eliminate housing stock.


    Bob Gunderson

    I don’t see car parking on the right side, or parking on the left side. This LOS F– street is pointless, if you can even call it a street..



    I was at the DNA Lounge last night around 8 PM and I overheard the doorman saying to a coworker that a cyclist was hit by a car in front of the club on 11th Street earlier in the evening.



    There most certainly is enough room. Such small, residential-sized roundabouts are done all over Melbourne, Australia:

    They could be further improved by better painting on the street for pedestrian and cyclists crossing, but the idea is there (and note that there are no stop signs).

    Here is another example in a neighborhood that has heavy bicycle and pedestrian traffic:



    Or, why bother having traffic engineers and planners when their experience and knowledge is discounted out of hand?


    Mesozoic Polk

    I mean, you can’t ever, under any circumstances, deny cars access to a street. How would anything function? Commerce would dry up like a stream hit by drought.



    I don’t think that there is enough room to make it a real roundabout, although stop signs could be added. The illustrations of real roundabouts in the page you linked to were roundabouts of large divided highways in a parklike setting. This is an intersection of two comparatively narrow streets in a residential neighborhood.



    That’s basically what they did on Page. Of course, that tuned into a giant political fight in which the residents of the neighborhood actually had to go and vote on whether they liked the traffic circles because why have representative democracy when you can make all the decisions yourself?





    Stop signs.


    boter op mijn hoofd

    Anyone remember the failed Page Street circle project in the Upper Haight? Same design here.


    David Marcus

    What’s up with keeping stop signs at roundabouts? SFMTA did the same with their test in the Richmond. The data on roundabout safety is clear (they’re amazing) but they’ll never gather public support if they keep the annoying and unnecessary stop signs.


    Bob Gunderson

    I’m very pleased that they’re taking into consideration that cars absolutely belong on this street, even though it’s a popular bike route and the bus carries over 20,000 people per day. You’re all second class citizens to the almighty vehicle, yay!



    What makes the proposal not a real roundabout?


    Upright Biker

    Columbus Avenue from Union to Washington could really benefit from traffic circles and roundabouts as well, esp. at Broadway.



    Good observations. The “refuge” islands really helped and took about a third of the street exposure out of the crossing. Very humane. (Wonder how all the Muni Metro shuttle buses will navigate it.)

    There’s thought currently being put into where Laguna Honda meets Dewey and Woodside. Continental crosswalks should come any day now, perhaps some green for the bike lane, and *don’t hold your breath* re-opening of the west side crosswalk where Dewey meets LH. The last would allow for a bike box and two-stage turn to continue south on LH or Woodside.

    Now Dewey & Pacheco could use a full on roundabout — as could many of the sweeping open intersections around the Laguna Honda and Forest Hill neighborhoods. It starts with imagining…



    Why not real roundabouts?



    It’s very easy and inexpensive to install temporary traffic circles using rubber wheel stops, signs, and bollards. Berkeley has had several of these installations for a number of years that are slowly being replaced with permanent materials once they have shown to be effective.



    They’re just afraid that if the stop sign are removed they’ll have less to harangue scofflaw cyclists about.



    Regarding the Berkeley example, I would add that in many circumstances they did indeed implement some great traffic circles but then decided to keep the stop signs anyway, due to community concerns about pedestrian safety (unfounded, in my opinion). I hope that SF avoids that same problem and manages to implement the traffic circles while removing the stop signs. Our infrastructure should train road users to slow down, look, and yield when necessary at all locations, not just blindly obey signs and signals.


    Michael Smith

    When I actually measured how traffic signals compared to 4-way stops would affect travel times I found that traffic signals were a really poor solution. Traffic circles will definitely be a much better option for reducing travel times (the buses never have to stop!) while making the intersections look much better. Check them out in Berkeley for many, many great examples. It is great that the SFMTA is trying out this solution. But it is rather bewildering that they are moving forward with questionable traffic signals at Broderick and Scott and all along Haight. Would have been much better to wait to see the results of the traffic circles before spending millions of $ on those signals.



    You know the NIMBYs are on the run when something is so scary they claim to be fighting it to protect the cyclists.


    Upright Biker

    There’s a remarkably efficient traffic circle where Taraval meets Dewey. The volume that passes very smoothly through it is in complete contrast to where Dewey meets Laguna Honda/Woodside, which is a signalized purgatory of idling internal combustion.



    Traffic circles could work on McAllister. There are some on La Jolla Blvd. in Pacific Beach, and the buses seem to be able to navigate them just fine. However, those circles and the intersections themselves are much bigger than the ones on McAllister. Try it with paint first.



    @omaryak – The trains were on the lower deck, so they never used that ramp. My guess is it was an entrance when the upper deck had traffic in both directions.




    Andy Chow

    That’s why I am not in favor of allowing sharing rides on automobiles, which I wrote to the state legislature about. Conflict between passengers happen even on transit vehicles, but on transit vehicles there are protocols to handle the situation, that there is space between passengers to reduce chances of conflict (one can move to another part of a bus or train), and that the environment feels public rather than private. Automobiles are generally not designed to carry strangers in a tight space. Things like sexual harassment and event assault in shared TNC vehicles are possible.



    I saw 3 motorcycle cops ticketing 2 cyclists this morning ~ 8:45 am on southbound Townsend St, at Lusk St (better known as “that stop light for the Safeway parking lot”). The woman on a bike that blew past me lucked out–she was legally OK because the light turned green when she was about 3 feet from the crosswalk, but she didn’t know that; didn’t care. Large truck in the lane next to me blocked the view of the crosswalk. Easily could have hit a pedestrian or me with the lack of room and speed she was traveling. Totally the type of user of our public spaces I applaud getting fined for their asshattery. But legally she was fine.



    Amsterdam : SF :: Rotterdam : Oakland.



    Sounds like you’d better form the SFCarCoalition to help educate everyone on following all speed limits, not driving that cab like a psycho, no sideshows, no double parking, etc.

    Once you get that cleaned up, you can come bitch about a cyclist advocacy org not keeping that homeless guy from riding the wrong way down the street.



    There was a hit and run last night on Valencia at 20th. A silver minivan rear ended (after some screeching of tires) a black sedan (probably a Lyft driver). I saw shortly after as the minivan turned from NB Valencia down EB 20th.

    There was a police cruiser parked on the opposite corner of the intersection who after a brief delay zoomed off in pursuit, but the perp had probably a 15 or 20 second head start.

    How would I find information about this? Checking SFGate arrest records turns up nothing likely looking, and a news search for San Francisco hit and run doesn’t turn up anything recent.

    Upshot: Six fire department vehicles and one cruiser responded. The two occupants of the rear ended vehicle were being checked for injuries when I left.